Water Bill

Dan Rogerson Excerpts

Monday 25th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty]

If the hon. Lady shows a bit of patience, she might hear more detail from us than we heard today from the Secretary of State.

The previous Labour Government passed legislation that allowed the water companies to introduce their own schemes. Those companies had assured the country that they were keen to do so, yet almost four years after that legislation was passed, how many of them have kept their promises? How many water companies have developed a scheme within their region? How many of those fat-cat boards have put even a fraction of their obscene profits into the pockets of the hardest hit households? Just three out of 20 of the most successful and profitable companies in the country have lifted a finger to help their customers. It is no wonder that the most charitable description of the system, as offered by Citizens Advice, is “ad hoc”.

What did we hear from the Secretary of State today? What was his response to corporate failure and what was his proposal to help customers? He has written a second letter to his friends, the water bosses, not to demand real action but to make a helpful suggestion. He does not believe in Government intervention. No matter how much the market fails and the companies drag their feet and how many customers cannot afford the inflation-busting prices, this is a Government who do not believe that they should act. We on the Labour Benches do not share that belief. We believe that when fat-cat bosses will not act, the Government must.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) said, we will introduce a national affordability scheme. I welcome the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck), who has been a constant champion of hard-pressed customers in the south-west region. Along with other Members, she raised the subject of flooding and flood insurance, which is an important issue. We share the concerns of many Members from across the House about both flood defences and how households can secure affordable insurance. The latest figures from the Environment Agency put the cost of damage to property in the past year at £277 million, almost £200 million of which was household damage.

We heard an excellent speech from the Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), who highlighted the problem eloquently. The Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), highlighted the important and often overlooked issue of surface water run-off. The Opposition welcome the principle behind the proposed new scheme, Flood Re, but like the Select Committee we have serious and legitimate concerns about the fact that the Bill contains only one clause on that matter.

My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) spoke from the heart about the problem of flooding. I am sure that the House would acknowledge that she has been a champion for her city, and I hope the Minister will provide real answers to the important issues that she raised.

I understand that Ministers are hastily drafting new clauses even now, but they must be adequately scrutinised. The issue has been raised by Members on both sides of the House, so will the Minister give a firm undertaking that the new clauses will be tabled in time to be reviewed adequately in Committee? Will he assure the House that such crucial amendments will not be rushed out at the last minute without due scrutiny?

We also heard from Members on both sides of the House about the tax paid by the water companies. As my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State has already said, it is simply unacceptable for water companies to make £1.9 billion in pre-tax profits and pay out £1.8 billion to shareholders. That is why we need to give the regulator broader powers to step in to protect customers and to ensure that fat-cat companies play by the same rules as other businesses. We want to ensure that excess profits, rather than heading to shareholders’ pockets, are used responsibly to reduce bills and improve infrastructure such as the Thames tunnel.

The hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) mentioned abstraction. Not for the first time, he raised his concerns about the damage to chalk streams and asked whether I would set out our party’s position on the environmental impact issue. I am always keen to oblige him, so let me set out clearly our view of the crucial need for environmental mitigation. Even when the Government have tried to introduce reform, they have failed to follow through. As the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee has warned repeatedly, a half-baked proposal to introduce upstream competition without proper abstract reform is worse than the status quo. As the WWF warned today,

“The licence system is completely broken, unsustainable and out of date”.

Why have the Government ended up in that mess? As in so many other cases where the Government have decided that something is difficult, tricky or requires them to act, they have just pushed this off. It should be no surprise that the Secretary of State ideologically opposes any Government action, but I wonder why the Minister responsible for water, the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson), has simply gone along with his boss’s laissez-faire attitude to our natural environment. Simply to promise, as Ministers apparently have, that the Department will do something in the next Parliament shows a lack of credibility.

Let me be clear: if Ministers have found thinking of solutions too hard, they should postpone all upstream reform until we have Ministers and officials who will stand up to the vested interests who are damaging our rivers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and I look forward to debating many of these issues with him in Committee over the coming weeks. I am struggling to follow his argument. He says that there is an issue with abstraction reform and that we should press ahead and do something now, but his solution otherwise is to delay the whole process and not to consider any kind of reform of the industry. That seems to be his argument.

[Thomas Docherty]

Oh dear me; the Minister has obviously forgotten his own position. He will still be a member of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee for a little longer, so perhaps he can set out which side of the argument he agrees with—that expressed by the Select Committee of which he is a member or that in his new role as a Minister.

The hon. Members for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and for Newbury (Richard Benyon) mentioned retail competition, and the Opposition support non-domestic competition. It has been a success in Scotland, and like the Select Committee of which the Minister is still a member, we believe that, implemented properly, it will work in England. Like the Committee, however, we think there are technical improvements that we intend to explore further in Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson)]

I particularly welcome that last comment from the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) and I look forward to discussing some of these issues in Committee. I thank all hon. Members for their participation in this interesting debate, which has been well informed. Hon. Members have covered a number of aspects of the Bill and, as it is a debate on Second Reading, some things that they would like added to the Bill. I will try to cover as many of those issues as I can.

I start by responding to the closing remarks from the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife. He dangled the prospect of something to do with affordability and helping people with their bills. I was in the House in the previous Parliament when constituents throughout the country and particularly in areas such as mine in the south-west were facing a real challenge, as the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) pointed out. I had meetings with the hon. Gentleman’s Front-Bench colleague who is no longer in his place, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), and we debated these issues. It was felt that nothing could be done. It was a very difficult problem. What we had from the previous Government was a series of reviews, some of which were good, well informed reviews that made a number of suggestions, but it has taken this Government to act upon them. That is the difference between the Government and the Opposition.

The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife says that he will not oppose the Bill today. That is encouraging, and I look forward to working at that level of consensus to deliver the aspects of the Bill that will assist many of our constituents around the country, as well as updating the framework around the water industry for the future and dealing with the flood insurance issues, to which I shall return in a little while. These are hugely important issues. As a Member for an area where water issues have been a live topic of debate and as a member of the Select Committee, as the hon. Gentleman helpfully pointed out, I am all too aware of the range of challenges that we face, from the cost of living for hard-pressed families to future pressures on water resources and flooding. We heard many contributions about those issues.

I have witnessed at first hand the environmental benefits that investment in the water sector have delivered over the past 24 years since the industry was privatised. I could raise some issues about how that occurred at the time. My hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) sought to give us a history lesson about the political balance in Cornwall and what that may or may not have delivered. There were no proposals to deal with the lack of affordability in the south-west until the coalition Government came in. Single-party Governments of both stripes did not deal with the problem, so I leave hon. Members to draw their own conclusions on what might have led to the change.

[Ian Swales]

We heard about the real-terms cut applied by the previous Government. Do we know the average annual value of that cut?

[Dan Rogerson]

We saw bills cut for a period, but then they went back up again. If we talk to our constituents about their memories of water bills over the past few years, both in the run-up to the general election and since in the price review period presided over by the previous Government, we will hear that their experience was that bills were rising.

On the environmental benefits since privatisation, we have seen huge improvements—for example, in bathing water quality—and that is very much to be welcomed and something that we should dwell on. We have had the opportunity to consider how that progress has been made. Of course, we will see further challenging regulation on bathing water quality in future, so it is absolutely vital that the industry, along with everyone else in the community who can influence water quality, is ready for the challenge, to make it even better.

The Bill seeks to look at market reform, because we need water supplies that are resilient to future pressures, while keeping bills affordable and, indeed, minimising the impact on the environment. That is competition not for the sake of it, but to drive greater efficiencies in the water industry and encourage more innovation. The benefits to business customers are obvious: more choice, better customer service and packages tailored to their needs.

All customers, including householders, will benefit from an industry that is incentivised to look for the most efficient way to meet future demand. We know that that works in practice. Last week, I visited a housing development in Rissington in Gloucestershire, where Albion Water—a new entrant—is supplying water and sewerage services. With its innovative solutions, it can provide separate supplies of drinking water and recycled greywater to houses in the development. It can therefore compete successfully against the incumbent water company on price, while reducing daily drinking water consumption by nearly half. That is evolution, rather than a radical overhaul.

Since privatisation, the industry has been successful in bringing in investment, which has delivered huge improvements, as I have mentioned. We have a strong and stable regulatory regime and no intention of disrupting it. That is why we are working closely with the industry to develop future markets.

Market reform is understandably of great interest to hon. Members. They want to know about it from both perspectives: they are concerned in some cases that we might be going too far, and in others that we might not be going far enough. Some Members, such as my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert), are keen to see competition in the residential sector, but we want to ensure that the change that we introduce is proportionate and that we proceed on a good evidence base. We can learn from the experience of Scotland, where business customers and non-domestic customers increasingly benefit from competition, so we know that the system can work. Competition in the residential sector would be a huge change, so we would have to come to anything that we wanted to do in that area at a later date. However, I take on board my hon. Friend’s comments and am reassured that he is observing that.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)]

At least half my constituency is supplied by Thames Water. There are consistent rumours that it is thinking about forcing all its customers on to water meters. Will the Bill make it easier for Thames Water to do that?

[Dan Rogerson]

Companies in water-stressed areas will be able to push people towards meters. Of course, new properties are customarily metered now, as a result of existing legislation. As we have heard today, there is a range of views on whether metering is desirable. Certainly, with regard to managing a scarce resource, it is desirable, but we must carefully examine the implications, such as the cost of the investment needed to install meters and the impact on bills, because there are always winners and losers. We need to look at that closely, as we move forward.

[Mr Charles Walker]

The population of this country is forecast to grow by 8 million or 9 million, and most of that growth will be in the east and the south-east. The problem is that the Bill simply does not address what we are going to do with these people and how we are going to provide them with water. We need more reservoirs.

[Dan Rogerson]

I agree that, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, we need to capture more of this water and make it work for us in such a way that we can improve environmental outcomes as well as resilience. That is very much what we want to happen.

[Miss McIntosh]

In terms of capturing water, is my hon. Friend going to deal with SUDS and surface water, because I know that he will care as passionately about this in his new position as he did when he was a member of the Select Committee?

[Dan Rogerson]

I had a premonition that I might get such an intervention from my hon. Friend, the Chair of the Select Committee. I know she is pleased that we are, as a Government, making progress towards implementing this process in April 2014. She would like it to be sooner, but we have to make sure that we get it right. The views of the Select Committee have been very useful in making sure that we get it brought in adequately.

We heard a couple of very specific questions on market reforms. My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay asked about small charities that operate from residential properties. The reform would affect non-domestic properties, so if a charity is operating from a property that is primarily residential, it will not have access to it, but it will be open to it if it is operating from other premises.

On abstraction reform, I entirely agree with Members’ comments about the need to tackle abstraction, which is damaging our rivers. We are tackling this in two ways. First, we are taking action using the tools already available to address over-abstraction. The Environment Agency has reviewed thousands of abstraction licences and has changed about 80 of them, returning 75 billion litres of water per year to the environment in England. That is equivalent to the annual average water use of a city larger than Birmingham. There is clearly a lot more to do in the individual catchments that have been mentioned, and we have to take account of the stress that is put on them.

The Bill will also help by removing water companies’ right to compensation to ensure that the funding of these schemes moves into Ofwat’s price review process, which is a far better way of tackling over-abstraction. In the longer term, we need a reformed regime fit to face the future challenges, and we will publish a consultation on possible options in December. [Interruption.] These reforms will affect a range of businesses, so we need to get them right.

[George Hollingbery]

An awful lot of gibbering and jabbering and yibbering and yabbering is going on on the Opposition Front Bench. Will the Minister please remind us of how much abstraction reform occurred in the 13 years of the Labour Government just past?

[Dan Rogerson]

Very little, I think is the answer. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention.

Dealing with abstraction gives me an opportunity to welcome the contribution by my predecessor, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), not only because of all the work that he put in and how he has informed our debate, but because by seemingly being very popular across the House he will make it much harder for anyone to oppose what is in the Bill, as it was his work that got us to this stage. I am sure that that will help to develop the consensus, because everyone agrees with the conclusions he drew and the position we are in. The Government are clear that any moves on abstraction and upstream reform must work together, so what we are establishing in the Bill will come into effect alongside the abstraction reform that we are moving towards. We have to get this right because it is crucial that we have the water resources to deliver the growth and environmental outcomes that we want to see.

Many Members covered flood insurance. I am all too aware of the devastation caused by flooding and its financial and emotional impact. I recall the destruction in Boscastle in my constituency. I became the Member of Parliament for North Cornwall a year after that tragedy, where fortunately no lives were lost. It also affected other nearby communities such as Crackington and Canworthy Water. The problem was that flood insurance companies were not up to the task. Fortunately, the Association of British Insurers was able to step in to offer advice and to help resolve the issues. As we have heard, other Members have similar recollections from their constituencies.

Flood risk management remains a top priority for this Government. We have committed record levels of capital spend and more than quadrupled contributions from other sources. As a result, we will have improved defences for 165,000 households by March 2015 and an extra 300,000 by 2021. I recently visited South Zeal in Devon, where residents shared with me their harrowing experiences of flooding. They also showed me the actions the community is taking to become more resilient to flooding, to keep down their insurance premiums in the long term. This Government are committed to providing access to affordable insurance for households at high risk.

We will table new clauses in Committee. Draft clauses have been available for some time and much of our work in Committee will be based on them. Were we to delay the Bill after this Second Reading debate, we would not be able to deliver our programme in a timely fashion. That is our objective. Yes, it is regrettable that those clauses are not in the Bill as drafted, but these are very complicated negotiations to ensure that an industry-led solution works not only for the industry, but fundamentally for communities and residents who need support.

[Thomas Docherty]

The Minister has given an undertaking that those new clauses will be available for scrutiny by the Bill Committee next week. Will he say, once and for all, whether those 20-odd clauses will be available in time for the Committee adequately to review them next week?

[Dan Rogerson]

It is my intention that they will be available for the Committee to look at as soon as possible, but we have to get them right and make sure that they deliver what the Government and my predecessor agreed with the industry, so that we deliver effectively.

[Alison Seabeck]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very decent with his time. Will he confirm that the new clauses will be available for the witness sitting, which will take place before the Committee considers the Bill? Will he make it clear that they will be available for the witnesses and not just the Committee?

[Dan Rogerson]

We would be much further forward had the previous Government done some of this work before they left office, but we have had to act on what we inherited, which, sadly, was very little.

Members have raised a number of other issues, including the use of council tax banding. I hope that all Members accept that that is a way forward. It may have some problems around the edges, but fundamentally it is the right approach. It is not my intention to move away from what was originally agreed, although the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) has made a case on behalf of his all-party group and Members who have an interest in issues such as band H and the 2009 cut-off.

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) made an impassioned plea, understandably, for her constituents and the issues faced by communities such as Hull, which is constructed in such a way that it has historically been subject to flooding. My hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) pointed out similar issues with her rural constituency. The agreement takes forward the work that was already in place. The hon. Lady set out the argument—although she came to a different conclusion from ours—that we do not wish to incentivise more building in areas prone to flooding, which explains the 2009 cut-off. The Government will respond to any argument for change, but our current view and, indeed, our agreement with the industry—which is, crucially, at the heart of this—is that that is the right way to proceed.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dan Rogerson]

I am sorry, but the hon. Lady has not been present for most of the debate and I need to make progress.

The Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee raised the issue of state aid. We have made it clear that aspects of Flood Re will count as state aid, so under competition rules we will need to seek approval from the Commission. We have been in communication with it and will start, along with the ABI, the formal notification process in 2014.

As we have heard, the aspiration of all this is to move to a free market over the next 25 years. Part of that involves seeking to continue to invest in flood defences and their maintenance, which I have already talked about, and looking at property-level protection schemes to ensure that they can be insured.

Hon. Members have mentioned uninsurable properties. I want to make it clear that no property will be seen as uninsurable initially, but if a property is repeatedly flooded, issues may arise that the scheme will have to take into account as we move forward. Certainly, the expectation is that all properties will initially be covered.

In relation to the impact on bills, a crucial part of the agreement was to get a limit on the proposed industry levy of £10.50 for a combined policy. The ABI thinks that that reflects existing levels of cross-subsidy for high flood risk, but it can of course be set out far more transparently. As I have said, I hope to table the flood clauses as early as we can in Committee, but we have to make sure that they are ready for debate.

We have sought to be as helpful as we can on the issues raised by members of the all-party group. I hope that consensus on a solution that works for those under threat of flooding and that is affordable and deliverable for the industry means there will be support for the proposals as a whole.

[Richard Benyon]

Before the Bill goes into Committee, may we lay one myth to rest? We can probably all point to developments in our constituencies that should never have taken place, but the fact is that in 97% of the times that the Environment Agency has objected on flood risk grounds in recent years, developments have not gone ahead. If hon. Members are honestly saying that no developments should ever take place in flood risk areas, there would be no more developments in Hull, London and York. We have to make sure that such developments are the right ones.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Rogerson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. House building has not been at its fastest recently, so the vast majority of properties in this country were built before the cut-off date, which ensures that there is affordable coverage for those who need it.

The Chair of the Select Committee made a point about sharing benefits data with water companies, as did the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View. We have to be careful because those data are very sensitive, and sharing them with the industry would currently be illegal. We can look at that, and the Select Committee has made recommendations, but we must get it right.

[Thomas Docherty]

The Minister is obviously talking about bits of the Bill that do not yet exist and which the House has not seen. A few moments ago, he said that capital expenditure had gone up. It might help him if I point out that there has been a drop of £96 million this year compared with the situation that the Government inherited in 2010. We want to place on the record the accurate figures, rather than those given to him by his civil servants.

[Dan Rogerson]

Over the spending review period as a whole, the investment will be bigger, and we will see the numbers climbing over the coming spending review period as well, by up to £400 million a year by 2021.

Several hon. Members raised the issue of bad debt, and rightly pointed out that some companies are better than others. We of course want all companies to aspire to do better. To return to the points made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, we now have a far more vocal and effective regulator than we have had for some time. On issues of bad debt, affordability and company transparency, which matters to many right hon. and hon. Members, the expectation on companies to deliver is now much greater. I want to make it clear that many companies are doing a good job, investing money and delivering for customers, but where there are problems, the regulator will tackle them. My right hon. Friend set out absolutely clearly in his letter to the companies his expectations for the industry. The Government are supporting the regulator to carry out the work that is necessary.

[Joan Walley]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dan Rogerson]

I will give way for a final time.

[Joan Walley]

In the remaining six minutes, will the Minister say whether he is minded to consider that the regulator should have a duty in respect of sustainability as a primary function, which has been raised by many Members?

[Dan Rogerson]

I am happy to consider that. The case for such a duty has been made by Members on both sides of the House. The clear gain that we want is for Ofwat to have an additional duty in respect of resilience, for all the reasons that we have given. We want to incentivise the water industry to have long-term solutions to the problems that face it, rather than moving from price review period to price review period. We want to encourage continued investment in solutions that involve retaining water for use, rather than abstraction-based solutions. We want to incentivise investment in the best environmental solutions.

Ofwat already has a duty in respect of sustainable development. We have received legal advice that, regardless of whether that is a primary duty, there is a duty on Ofwat to take sustainability into account. Were we to make that a primary duty, we would perhaps not be able to bring in the resilience duty that we want. We will consider that issue and I am sure we will return to it in Committee, because a number of hon. Members have said that they will raise it. At the moment, we think that there are dangers in elevating the sustainability duty above the resilience duty. If I can be convinced that there is a way to deliver both, I will be happy to listen, but I want to ensure that we have resilience.

A number of other detailed issues have been raised. My hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) spoke about park homes and I am meeting her this week to discuss the matter. I will be pleased if we can make progress on it, but there are issues with the way in which they take their water from an intermediary, as she pointed out. Canals were mentioned. We have discussed the Canal & River Trust on the Floor of the House in Question Time. I am happy to meet the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) and other hon. Members to discuss that issue.

I am grateful that we have had so much time to discuss the issues and to get them out in the open. We have talked about the need to keep water available and affordable, and to continue to improve the environment. We have also mentioned the uncertainties in our water supply and the pressures on it, such as unpredictable weather and the growing population. We have a responsibility to ensure that we use our water wisely, to protect it and to ensure that there is enough for future generations. That is why we are taking action now. I am grateful for the support of Members from all parts of the House. I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second Time.

Water Bill (Programme)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Water Bill:

Committal

(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.

Proceedings in Public Bill Committee

(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday 17 December 2013.

(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.

Consideration and Third Reading

(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.

(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.

(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.

Other proceedings

(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Mark Lancaster.)

Question agreed to.

Water Bill (Money)

Queen’s recommendation signified.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Water Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of:

(1) any expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by the Secretary of State or the Competition and Markets Authority; and

(2) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided.—(Mark Lancaster.)

Question agreed to.

Water Bill (Ways and Means)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Water Bill, it is expedient to authorise:

(1) the inclusion in sewerage licences of conditions requiring the payment of sums to the Water Services Regulation Authority,

(2) an extension of the cases in which a penalty may be imposed under section 22A of the Water Industry Act 1991,

(3) an extension of the cases in which a penalty may be imposed under section 111 of the Enterprise Act 2002 as applied by section 17M or 17Q of the Water Industry Act 1991,

(4) the charging of fees for providing copies of, or data comprising, all or part of the main river map for England,

(5) the conferring of powers on the Secretary of State to make regulations requiring insurers to pay levies or make contributions for purposes relating to flood insurance, and

(6) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Mark Lancaster.)

Question agreed to.