Care Bill [Lords]

Debate between Dan Poulter and Frank Dobson

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

I must make progress. I want to address the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow). I will not give way until I have made better progress. On the point made by the right hon. Gentleman—and this is important—when he put forward the legislation on the TSA, he envisaged potentially turning it into a hospital closure clause. In 2009, on Second Reading of the Health Bill, he said:

“We believe these measures will provide protection against the possibility of NHS providers continuing indefinitely.”—[Official Report, 8 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 544.]

That would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman thought that whole organisations might be shut down or closed as a result of the TSA regime. We do not believe that that is the case. We recognise that trusts, when they severely fail, may have to change the services they deliver. We want to protect trusts from the closure that the right hon. Gentleman envisaged in his remarks. His own words indicate that Labour had a hospital closure clause in the TSA regime. The Government, however, are making it clear that this is about service change in the interest of patients when all other avenues have been exhausted, which is a good thing.

Let me turn now to new clause 16, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) and other hon. Members.

[Frank Dobson]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

I will give way to the former Secretary of State in one moment, but I would like to make some progress. I have been very generous in giving way.

The Government are grateful to Members for raising these important issues, but, regretfully, we cannot accept the amendment. The amendment makes two key changes. First, it gives commissioners of other trusts affected by the recommendations of an administrator at a foundation trust the power to define essential services at those trusts. That would be cumbersome and impractical and draw the focus away from the trust in administration and undermine the need for recommendations affecting other providers to be “necessary and consequential”, which is something that my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam believes in and raised in Committee.

Secondly, protecting essential services gives the administrator their focus for the trust in administration; it is a critical part of the process. Asking commissioners at other trusts to define their essential services would incorrectly indicate an equivalence in the administrator’s role between the failed trust and other successful providers.

Clause 119 recognises the need to give other commissioners a clear role and a proper say. It already extends the existing requirement on an administrator at a foundation trust to obtain the consent for their recommendations from each commissioner of the failing trust, and also from each commissioner of any affected trust. NHS England support must be sought in cases where not all commissioners agree.

Let me be absolutely clear. Under subsections (3), (4) and (6), the commissioners who are asked to agree and draft the final TSA report already include commissioners from affected trusts. It may be hard to spot that in the clause, as it amends existing legislation.

Clause 119 also requires the administrator to consult other affected commissioners. He or she must publish a summary of the consultation responses and take them properly into account when making final recommendations. The Secretary of State or Monitor will need to be satisfied that the administrator has carried out their administration duties properly, including showing proper regard for the statutory guidance.

Commissioners of other affected trusts will therefore have every opportunity to make their views known. However, I would like to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam for bringing the matter to our attention. The Government agree that it is important for other local commissioners to be able to protect their essential services. We will update the guidance to make it clear that the agreement of commissioners to the TSA report should include their agreement that essential services have been protected at other trusts, as well as at the failing trust, so that all local commissioners have an equal say, with NHS England arbitrating in the event of disagreement. Furthermore, I would like to invite my right hon. Friend to chair a committee of MPs and peers to consider the draft guidance and ensure that his concerns are properly addressed before the regime is used.

Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Bill

Debate between Dan Poulter and Frank Dobson

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Frank Dobson]

I begin with a reminder. I was one of those Labour people who voted against the establishment of foundation trusts and the setting up of Monitor. In doing so, I was supported by those on the Conservative Front Bench, so I do not think that the Conservatives should claim any consistency in these matters.

My second point is that although one would never dream it was true from listening to Ministers or their supporters, it is quite clear that the national health service is now working very well and is more popular than ever; and yet we are told that it needs a radical overhaul. However, the popularity of the national health service at the time of the last general election probably explains why both the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats promised that there would be no top-down reorganisation of it. However, if neither the Bill as originally produced nor the post-pausal Bill that we have now is top-down change, God knows how one would define it.

The whole purpose of this Bill is to shift us away from the basic collaborative approach to the provision of health care in this country and to substitute a large amount of competition, gradually involving more and more of the private sector and, I believe, privatisation. In order to put things in perspective, it is worth pointing out that when the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), ceased to be the Secretary of State for Health, the national health service was performing 5.7 million operations a year in its hospitals. When Labour left office, it was performing 9.7 million operations a year, an increase of 58%. That was the result of improved working practices developed by—

[Dr Poulter]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Frank Dobson]

No, not for the minute.

That change was the result of improved working practices developed by the people working in the national health service, not the result of any structural changes. It was also partly the result of the biggest hospital building programme in history, as well as a lot more new and better equipment, newer GP surgeries, 78,000 extra nurses and 27,000 extra doctors. Those were among the reasons that the NHS became so much more popular. It is popular because, for most people in most parts of the country most of the time, it is already doing a very good job. However, that is now going into decline, because many people working in the NHS carrying out pre-legislative preparatory work on the proposed changes are having to divert their efforts into bringing about structural change. That is one of the reasons waiting lists and waiting times are going up—something that the Government deny is happening.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Poulter]

I am going to make a little progress. Other speakers want to contribute, so I hope that the hon. Lady will forgive me for not taking her intervention.

The Bill focuses on integration and looks to improve the care particularly of our frail elderly. There is too much silo working in the health service—in primary care, in secondary care and in adult social services. The Bill seeks to integrate services through the role provided by Monitor in helping to provide an overarching view of value for the patient and through the setting up of health and wellbeing boards at local level. That is intended to provide better integration of adult social care with NHS care, which has not happened in all parts of the country.

The hon. Member for Easington made a very good speech in which he said that care was hugely variable throughout different parts of England. That is because in many areas we do not have properly joined-up thinking about how things are done. For example, hospitals are paid on payment by results, but there is no incentive necessarily to reduce admissions and to provide much more focused community care, which would be so important in improving the care of the frail elderly in their communities and in their homes. The Bill is starting to take the first steps towards that sort of joined-up thinking.

If Labour Members are concerned about this, the point was well made by Lord Warner in his recent comments as part of the Dilnot report. The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) laughs, but he served alongside Lord Warner in the previous Government.

[Frank Dobson]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman did not give way to me, but I will give way to him in a moment and listen to what he has to say. He sat alongside Lord Warner as a member of the Government, and Lord Warner has said that the previous Government did not pay enough attention to how we are better to integrate services and provide adult social care in the context of the NHS and other services.

[Frank Dobson]

I am glad that when I was Secretary of State for Health, Norman Warner did not get anywhere the Department of Health. I can report, on behalf of my London colleagues, that when he became an arbiter of the future of health care in London he must have been about the most unpopular person who has ever had that job.

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman was a part of the party of Government at that time. Lord Warner was a leading member, and it is fair to point out that he has come forward with some good cross-party recommendations that we very much welcome. The recommendations point to the fact that the key challenge for the NHS is better integrating services and providing high-quality patient care, especially in elderly care and adult social care. That has not happened as effectively as it should have done in the last 10 years and we need to ensure that it does happen. That is why this Bill is a good thing.

Members on both sides of the House have generally welcomed the use of the private sector where it can add value to the NHS, especially for patients. That has to be a good thing, but we need to ensure—as the Bill does—that we do not have the cherry-picking that we saw in the past. We need to ensure that we have a health service that provides better value for money, better care and more integrated adult social care and health care for the frail elderly.