Birmingham Pub Bombings

Debate between Dan Jarvis and Julian Lewis

Wednesday 9th July 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I am very glad that the Minister has concentrated on the truth and justice aspect of the legacy Act. Can he reassure the House that in their proposals to repeal the legacy Act, the Government are not going to lose the opportunity of having the trade-off, as it were, between immunity from prosecution and truth recovery, which was always the basis of the legacy Act?

[Dan Jarvis]

The right hon. Gentleman, who is a very experienced Member of this House, will know that I am standing next to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and I hope that he will understand that the work of the previous Government, while no doubt well-intentioned, did not provide a solution that had the support of political parties in Northern Ireland—nor did it have the support of veterans and those who suffered the impact of terrorism. I can give him an absolute assurance that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, working with colleagues right across Government, will do everything possible to ensure that we put in place a solution and a settlement that is able to attract wider support.

[Sir Julian Lewis]

It is kind of the Minister to give way one more time. I urge Ministers not to be blinded by what political parties in Northern Ireland say, because the truth of the matter is that they have to take certain positions—usually ones that favour their side and disfavour the other side—and the prospect of getting all those parties to agree on something like this is minute. That is why the legacy Act cut through all that, in the same way that Nelson Mandela came up with a similar solution that worked in South Africa.

[Dan Jarvis]

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman would accept that none of the political parties in Northern Ireland were able to support the previous arrangements. I know that he understands the complexity of these matters, and I hope that he will see that this Government are acting in good faith and attempting to put in place an arrangement that can attract the widespread support that is required.

As I was saying, the option for families to refer their case to the commission is available now. I encourage any victim, survivor or family member affected by the troubles to give consideration to the commission in their search for answers.

A number of investigations have been conducted over the 50 years since the bombings, including West Midlands police investigations between 2012 and 2014 and between 2019 and 2023, as well as coronial inquests that concluded in 2019. As is the case with so many incidents that occurred during the troubles, the prospect of criminal justice outcomes is increasingly unlikely. The families of the bereaved in Birmingham, like so many others, completely understandably continue to seek the information and accountability that they deserve.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North raised the desire of the families for the role of the police and the criminal justice system to be investigated as part of any public inquiry. As Members will be aware, the Independent Office for Police Conduct is a respected and well-tested forum for such matters. As a Northern Ireland veteran myself, I know that the troubles were a devastating time for the whole nation—such that 25 years on from the passing of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, the impact lives on.

Each tragedy has far-reaching and long-standing effects on victims, survivors and the communities around them. The work undertaken by all those who sought to end the troubles has helped prevent further such tragedies. It is important that we seek to remain united across the House in our condemnation of anyone who seeks to take us back to those times.

The pub bombings in Birmingham killed or injured innocent people who happened to be in a particular place when heinous acts were perpetrated. Today, and always, we mourn the dead and hold their loved ones in our thoughts. We think too of the survivors and all those who were affected.

I want to finish by thanking my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North for securing the debate and all the right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed to it. Terrorist attacks have terrible and far-reaching consequences on individuals, communities and our society as a whole. We must stand united to combat terrorism, whether it is driven by political, religious or ideological causes. The Government and the people of this country are united in our condemnation of those who inflict violence on our streets.

The Birmingham pub bombings were a brutal moment in the history of that great city and of our country—a day when 21 lives were cruelly snatched away and hundreds more changed forever. We understand that the devastation caused by those horrific attacks continues for people to this day and, more than 50 years later, the fact that their quest for answers and justice goes on must be unbelievably distressing. As I have said, we recognise the frustration that causes, yet these are decisions that need to be taken incredibly carefully. The Government will respond to the request for a public inquiry as soon as possible.

I have the utmost sympathy for the bereaved families and for the survivors. Their experience for over 50 years has been deeply painful, and I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members across the House continue to hold them in their thoughts and prayers.

Question put and agreed to.

Deprivation of Citizenship Orders (Effect during Appeal) Bill

Debate between Dan Jarvis and Julian Lewis

2nd reading
Monday 30th June 2025 Commons Chamber

[Dan Jarvis]

Forgive me, but I do not think I said that; I think I said the opposite. I am very happy to discuss the matter further with my hon. Friend. I hope she understands, and I hope I have made it clear, that the Bill is incredibly narrow in its scope. It seeks to take us back to the legal position we were in a matter of months ago, prior to the judgment of the Supreme Court. It does not in any way undermine the right of appeal. If she has further concerns, I am very happy to speak to her, but I can give her an assurance. She is very welcome to look at the Bill. It will not take her very long to read it. It is two clauses, with a single substantive clause, specifically designed to take us back to the legal position we were in just a few months ago. I hope she will be reassured by that.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I have come to this debate without any prior knowledge of what is proposed, so I am making this point as a result of what I have heard so far. Am I right in thinking that what the Minister particularly has in mind is people with dual citizenship who might, for example, have gone abroad to fight for a terrorist organisation, such as ISIS. There would, in such a case, be nothing forbidding us from removing their British citizenship. If they came back, even if they could be convicted of anything at all, they would be imprisoned for only a relatively short time, if at all, and then the security services would probably have to spend many years monitoring them. Is that the sort of scenario the Minister has in mind?

Counter Terrorism Policing: Arrests

Debate between Dan Jarvis and Julian Lewis

Tuesday 6th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Dan Jarvis]

I can give my hon. Friend a categorical assurance that this Government will work incredibly closely with the Jewish community, as did the previous Government, to provide them with the assurances that they rightly want and deserve. It is completely unacceptable that any sector of our community could be threatened, whether by terrorism or by a state-based threat. The Home Secretary and I, and other Ministers, are in regular contact with the Community Security Trust and a range of other organisations from the Jewish community, and we work tirelessly to ensure that they not only are safe but feel safe.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

In the fullness of time, it will undoubtedly be revealed what the targets of these terrorist plots were going to be. If it turns out that one of them was again the broadcaster Iran International, which had to relocate to Washington temporarily in 2023, will the Minister undertake to speak with his Foreign Office colleagues about the importance of impressing on the Trump Administration that these repressive regimes fear free broadcasting agencies, and that that is why the Trump Administration should not be closing down Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty or indeed Voice of America itself?

[Dan Jarvis]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a sage point, as he always does, and he is absolutely right. The UK has an incredibly important relationship with the United States, and it is a relationship that we invest significantly in. That is not only in our national interest but in the national interest of the United States and other Five Eyes partners. I can give him an assurance that the question he has just raised will be heard by colleagues.

Foreign Influence Registration Scheme

Debate between Dan Jarvis and Julian Lewis

Tuesday 1st April 2025 Commons Chamber

[Dan Jarvis]

My right hon. Friend is right: border security is national security. She will know that the Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill has now completed its Committee stage, and she and other Members will have noted that yesterday the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary hosted an organised immigration summit in London, which was attended by countless international partners and was a very constructive and worthwhile gathering. She will also know of the important work that is now being done by the Border Security Commander, who is working closely with our international allies. We are making good progress with these matters, which we take extremely seriously, and although we will have more to do, I am pleased with the progress that we have made to date.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Two of the four ugly totalitarian sisters have been included in the list so far, and I trust that China and North Korea will both be added to the enhanced tier in the fullness of time; but will the Minister take back to the Government the message that the House is concerned about the building of the biggest Chinese communist embassy in western Europe—in fact, the biggest embassy—in London? It is not clear why the Government needed to call it in on security grounds, given that the local authority wanted to refuse permission completely. Will the Minister also explain the differential between the penalty that people will face when exposed for acting on behalf of a foreign power if they have registered and the penalty that they will face if they have not registered?

Iranian State Threats

Debate between Dan Jarvis and Julian Lewis

Tuesday 4th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Dan Jarvis]

My hon. Friend raises an important threat vector that is not often commented on. I can tell him that the National Cyber Security Centre assessed that Iran is an aggressive and capable cyber-actor, with a number of powerful disruptive and destructive tools at its disposal. As he will understand, the NCSC continues to work closely with Government, industry and international partners to mitigate the cyber-threat from Iran. It is something that we take seriously and that we are working across Government to counter.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that this is at least one area where our co-operation with the United States can continue on the basis of a common mutual interest, given President Trump’s extremely strong attitude to the abuses carried out by the Iranian regime? Is the Minister aware—I think he probably is—that during the previous Parliament the Intelligence and Security Committee completed the classified version of a major report on Iran and all its activities? Does he look forward, like me, to the redaction process being completed soon, so that we can all benefit from the findings of that report?

[Dan Jarvis]

I am grateful, as always, to the right hon. Gentleman because he always adds a significant amount of wisdom to proceedings, and I appreciate it. I agree about the importance of our relationship with the United States and that we absolutely have a mutual interest with colleagues in the new Administration. The Prime Minister discussed the matter with President Trump on his recent visit to Washington. I am aware of the report by the Intelligence and Security Committee in the previous Parliament that the right hon. Gentleman referenced. I wrote to the Committee this morning outlining the measures that I have announced today. I look forward to working closely with the Committee to ensure that we can collectively derive the benefits of the report. I am grateful to him and previous Members for the work they have done.

Southport Attack

Debate between Dan Jarvis and Julian Lewis

Wednesday 5th February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Dan Jarvis]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. The Government are crystal clear that content which is illegal must be taken down by the tech companies. We have the power to compel companies that fail to co-operate on such content. I think it is not a controversial thing to say that the tech companies have an absolute responsibility, both legal and moral, to keep their users safe, and that particularly applies in the context of younger people. As I think she will know, from March, under the Online Safety Act 2023, they will be required to identify and remove terrorist content swiftly and prevent users from encountering it. The Government have again been clear: should that not prove to be sufficient, we will consider all mechanisms, including legislative ones, to go further.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Will the Minister consider making available to interested colleagues on both sides of the House a presentation of what actually happens on Prevent and Channel courses? In the absence of that, may I ask him, from his personal knowledge of what happens on those courses, am I right in thinking that they are primarily therapeutic? Would he therefore accept that there are some people, not primarily motivated by ideology but psychotic, extremely narcissist and possibly using or abusing mind-altering drugs, who, no matter how much therapy they had, would still go on to commit atrocities; in which case, what powers exist, in mental health legislation and anti-terrorist legislation, to prevent them from committing such acts?

[Dan Jarvis]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, as I always am, for his very sensible and reasonable question. I am very happy to arrange a presentation in the way that he has described, if he and other right hon. and hon. Members think that that would be useful. I think it would be and I think it is a helpful suggestion. The truth of the matter is that, in the context of the Prevent programme, we will be dealing with a wide range of different threats. We have spoken previously about our increasing concern with regard to the number of young people who are presenting for a variety of different reasons, but those reasons do include very significant concerns that relate to mental health, autism and neurodivergence. We are looking at those things incredibly carefully. As I know that he will understand, the public inquiry will of course look at them as well. I referenced earlier on in my remarks some pilot trials that we will be launching next week. They are about looking at how we can manage data in a more effective way and how we can ensure that those people who currently do not meet the thresholds for referral into the Prevent programme can be guaranteed the support that they obviously require in order to mitigate the risks that they are exposed to. I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s approach. I will think on it further and come back to him with thoughts about a presentation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dan Jarvis and Julian Lewis

Monday 29th July 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dan Jarvis]

I welcome my hon. Friend to her place. The defending democracy taskforce met for the first time under the new Government on 25 July. The taskforce brings together Ministers from across Government, along with representatives from law enforcement and the intelligence community. Last week’s meeting discussed how political intimidation and harassment has no place in our society, and how the taskforce will drive a whole-of-Government response to the full range of threats to our democracy. The taskforce will bring to bear the full range of tools and capabilities to meet this challenge.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I warmly welcome the appointment of the Minister and congratulate him on it. Like me, he will appreciate that the security and intelligence agencies are reluctant to be seen to interfere in the democratic process, but does he agree that steps must be taken to ensure that the proceeds of kleptocracy in countries such as Russia are not used to infect democratic political parties in this country and elsewhere?

Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill

Debate between Dan Jarvis and Julian Lewis

Report stage & 3rd reading & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 3rd November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Dan Jarvis]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the comments towards the end of his remarks. There is a weight of expert opinion. I am reassured about the strength of the case that I and other hon. Members are seeking to make today by the contacts I have had with my former colleagues who are still serving in our armed forces. There is a genuine debate still to be had about this. I am sure that the Minister will want to engage with the substance of the debate. Let us keep talking about it.

[Dr Julian Lewis]

When the Defence Committee was looking at the matter in the previous two Parliaments, it recommended a Bill of this sort provided that the time limit was qualified by the absence of compelling new evidence. Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman saying that he does not feel that that proviso is in the Bill? If that proviso is in the Bill, if there were compelling new evidence that had not come forward in the first five years but came forward afterwards, then indeed a prosecution could proceed.

[Dan Jarvis]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. I certainly assume that all of us attend this debate and seek to make contributions in good faith, and I think there is a genuine desire from Members from all parts of the House to improve this Bill. The Minister has indicated on a number of occasions that in good faith he wants to have that continuing conversation with Members about how we can improve the Bill. There is still time to do so, and I very much hope that we will not miss out on that opportunity.