Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill

Damian Hinds Excerpts

Friday 11th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant]

As I have said, legislation is about not just what it does, but the declaratory effect that it has. The hon. Lady referred to the intended consequences of her Bill, but it would also have unintended consequences. As her colleague, the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire, has already in effect told us, press releases will be sent out the moment the Bill comes into force condemning some Members for taking part in debates and votes on matters that the Bill declares as being for England only. I presume that there would also be condemnation of English MPs taking part in debates and votes on legislation that applies only to Wales. If we are going to reduce the number of Members of Parliament for Wales to 30, it will be difficult to take such legislation through effectively if there are not enough Back Benchers to be able to make proper informed decisions about the measures under discussion. The direction of travel the hon. Member for West Worcestershire is taking us down is unfortunate.

I also think there will be unfortunate direct consequences, in that the number of Bills will increase, which will make things more difficult for us, and the number of clauses will also increase. We will end up with worse legislation because, as the hon. Lady has said, draftsmen will be required to try to provide absolute clarity that measures apply specifically to England, for example, or to Wales alone.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

rose—

[Chris Bryant]

That was going to be my last sentence, but I will allow the hon. Gentleman to intervene.

[Damian Hinds]

Have any of these adverse effects arisen as a result of the current statement of territorial extent?

[Chris Bryant]

Which specific declaration is the hon. Gentleman referring to?

[Damian Hinds]

I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by “declaration” as I am relatively new to all this, but Bills currently have a statement of territorial extent, yet I am not aware of certain Members being shamed into not commenting on them.

[Chris Bryant]

Such declarations do not specify whether a Bill is exclusively English, Welsh or Northern Irish, or applies to all four territories or just two—or whatever. There has not been a problem thus far, and that is why I do not think there is any reason to make changes through legislation. I am even more sceptical about this Bill than the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) normally is about everything. If it proceeds to Second Reading, we will want to scrutinise and amend it robustly. As other Members have revealed, there are major problems with these measures that the hon. Member for West Worcestershire has not considered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

I want to speak briefly in support of my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) and her short, simple and splendid Bill.

The previous Government started a number of constitutional journeys that did not have clear destinations. The reform of the other place is one example, and devolution is another—as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) has correctly pointed out, devolution is more than one journey.

The Bill does not tell us exactly where we are going. It does not buy us a map or a TomTom, but it points the vehicle in the correct direction and provides greater visibility of the road ahead. The real divide is between those who think that the West Lothian question is a question that needs to be answered, and those who think that it is a question that might just go away. As my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) has put it, the question needs to be answered, if we care about maintaining the Union and carrying the people of the United Kingdom with us.

The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) discussed the declaratory effect of passing this Bill. He is right, but the declaratory effect would be a good thing, because it would make it clear that this House thinks that the question needs to be answered. The Bill does not answer the question, but it makes it more urgent.

We have discussed a number of options today, such as the double-majority option. The double-lock system, which is slightly different, was proposed by the taskforce on democracy, which was chaired by the Secretary of State for Justice. The double-lock system is an elegant solution to the problem, where the whole House would vote on Second Reading and Third Reading, but only English MPs would be allowed to vote in Committee and on Report. The great advantage of that system is that it would force people to negotiate. If, as a side effect, there were slightly less legislation, it would not be such a bad thing. [Interruption.] I do not accept that there would automatically be more legislation caused by Governments duplicating Bills to cover the different constituent countries of the kingdom.

As I have said, the Bill is a first step. It is not the solution to the West Lothian question, but it does enable it. When it comes to constitutional change, baby steps are good steps—incrementalism is a good thing, rather than making great lurches forward. The constitution is an organic and delicate thing, which we change at our peril. In her Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire neatly gets around the two major objections on territorial extent: namely, the potential politicisation of the office of the Speaker and the implications for the Barnett formula.

I am happy to support the Bill. I hope that it is read a Second time today and that it completes its later stages.