Police and Crime Commissioners (Wales)

Damian Green Excerpts

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Damian Green)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under you, Mr Amess. I congratulate the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) on obtaining the debate. He raised a number of interesting and legitimate questions relating to the powers and performance of police and crime commissioners in Wales, and I will seek to respond to all of them. I hope that he will agree with me that police officers and staff in the whole of Wales—not just in Gwent—are making a significant contribution to the successful fight against crime. In that context, I am grateful for his support for the role of the PCC.

Given all the points made by the hon. Gentleman and by other hon. Members about PCCs and policing, I shall start by talking about the context in which the PCCs operate. The Government inherited a policing landscape disconnected from the public. There was a lack of local democratic accountability, as the public had no direct involvement in the old police authorities. At the same time, there was too much central Government interference through centrally imposed targets that stifled police professionalism and discretion, and there was too little Government focus on tackling national concerns such as organised crime.

Reform was necessary, but it had to take place against a very tough financial background. Despite that background, we have embarked on the most radical reform of policing in 50 years. The reform is aimed—PCCs are central to this—at ensuring that the police are more responsive to the public and more transparent in their work. I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about transparency and I will deal with that in detail in a second. The reform is also aimed at ensuring that the police are more flexible in their approach and more suited to the demands of the 21st century.

At this stage, it is clear from the figures that matter that the reforms are working. Crime is down to the lowest level ever recorded. Let me narrow the focus to Gwent. In the period from June 2010 to June 2013, crime in Gwent went down by 29%. In the past year, since the election of the police and crime commissioner, it has fallen by 4%. I will not weary hon. Members with the figures for the other three police regions in Wales, but they are all consistent with that.

Gwent has had the biggest fall of any of the police regions in Wales, but all of them show significant falls, both over a three-year period and over the past 12 months. The test that we in the Government put on the police is now a simple one. We swept away all the targets; we just ask them to cut crime, and they are doing so. They are doing so across Wales and in particular in Gwent. Everyone involved is to be congratulated on that.

Of course, we have not reached the end of the reform process—one never does. The reforms continue, and the next and most radical phase of police reform is aimed at transforming front-line policing. We want every police officer to fulfil their potential and to feel a greater sense of professional pride, so that the public get a better service. The impetus for change now lies both with the police and with the PCCs.

[Paul Flynn]

The Minister will have noticed that the trend of reducing crime was accelerating before the arrival of the PCCs, but does he really think that a level of support for a candidate of, say, between 6% and 8% of the total vote is any kind of meaningful democratic involvement?

[Damian Green]

I agree with the point, which many people have made, that one would have wished the turnout to be higher. It was not ideal, but the fact was that 5 million people cast votes in last year’s elections and that is approximately 5 million more than ever had a say in the police authorities that the PCCs replaced. Police authorities were unaccountable, invisible bodies. Now, people have the chance to elect the police and crime commissioner.

[Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree with the senior Dyfed Powys police officer who told me that it might be between two and five years before we are able properly to assess the benefits or otherwise of police and crime commissioners? Perhaps it will be then that we will see whether there is public appreciation of them and voter turnout might be somewhat different.

[Damian Green]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point about the length of time. Now that we are more or less up to the first anniversary of the PCCs, we can see what each of them has done and can make a realistic assessment of their effectiveness, rather than simply looking at the turnout in the elections last November.

Let me deal with some of the specific issues that the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent and others brought up. One was transparency. I find it difficult to accept the criticism that PCCs are in any way less transparent than the system before. I defy any Member of the House to have gone out before last November, asked their constituents who the chair of the police authority was and expected more than one in a million to know the answer. They were completely invisible; we know that.

Specific criticism was made of the police and crime commissioner in Gwent. I have been on his website and found that, on the page entitled “Transparency”, he says:

“As well as the information we have a legal responsibility to provide under the…Act…and The Elected Local Policing Bodies (Specified Information) Order…we have…agreed to make the agendas and minutes of the Strategy and Performance Board…and the Joint Audit Committee…available. The SPB is where the Commissioner holds the Chief Constable to account and the JAC provides comments, advice and assurance on matters relating to the internal control environment of both the Chief Constable and the Commissioner.”

There is a series of pages, whose titles include “Gifts and Hospitality”, “Register”, “Publications”, “Finance”, Performance”, “Decisions Made”, “Estates Register” and “Complaints Information”.

The document is transparent. A person does not even need to be in Gwent to see it; they can sit in London and find out quite a lot of detail about what the police and crime commissioner in Gwent is doing. I gently suggest to the House that none of that would have been available 12 months ago, because police authorities did not have to do that sort of thing.

[Nick Smith]

I perfectly accept the anonymous nature of police authorities before PCCs came along. However, does the Minister not accept that we only found out that the PCC in Gwent had effectively sacked the chief constable—made her resign—because of a leak in the local newspaper?

[Damian Green]

I will return to the departure of Carmel Napier; I said that I would deal with each individual issue that came up.

Regarding the point about Winston Roddick, I think there was some feeling in the intervention and response of the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) that a cloud hung over Mr Roddick in some way. There had been an allegation that he did not live in the area for which he had been elected. The Independent Police Complaints Commission found no evidence to support that allegation and therefore did not pass on the investigation file. Its report said:

“Considering the evidence provided by witnesses, voters and credit checks, the supporting mobile phone cell site analysis and the account provided by Mr Roddick, in my opinion, there is no evidence that a criminal offence may have been committed by Mr Roddick.”

I think we should put the matter to bed.

[Stephen Doughty]

Is the Minister aware of the complaint that has been made by four of the five candidates for the north Wales police and crime commissioner elections in recent days—both about the IPCC decision and about other matters that have come out as a result of that investigation? Notwithstanding what he has just said, will he look further into the matter?

[Damian Green]

The point about the IPCC—the clue is in its title—is that it is independent. It is not for me or any Minister to intervene in its investigations. It is independent. It looked into that complaint, and I have just read out its verdict.

[Wayne David]

Regarding the situation in north Wales, surely the Minister will agree that it is at least morally wrong that a Liberal Democrat candidate was elected but never declared that he was a Liberal Democrat. That was the case with Mr Roddick.

[Damian Green]

What candidates choose to describe themselves as at elections is, perhaps happily, not a matter for Ministers. I merely observe a point that has been made by many others after people have claimed that being an independent means that one is not a politician: being an independent means that someone is a politician who will not tell people what their politics are, which is what I have always believed.

[Paul Flynn]

The point is a serious one. In the dark age before 1987, when my constituency had a Conservative Member of Parliament, a certain Winston Roddick had stood and described himself as a Liberal Democrat. He stood in north Wales as an independent, and then metamorphosed into a Liberal Democrat overnight. Is that not likely to bring the whole process into disrepute?

[Damian Green]

There is a long history of people changing parties throughout long political careers—indeed, the greatest ever Englishman—Winston Churchill—did it. I feel that it is not necessarily for the House to comment on the issue.

Many PCCs have done extremely good work. In Gwent, Ian Johnston has actively promoted a drug intervention programme, which has seen a 15% rise in participants over the past year. I shall be non-partisan about the issue. Only one of the four PCCs in Wales is in my party, but I have examples of all of PCCs doing good work.

In south Wales, Alun Michael has launched a number of evidence-based initiatives with partners—for example, working with two health trusts to analyse and reduce the number of violent incidents that result in victims being taken to A and E. In north Wales, Mr Roddick has asked the chief constable to devise an operational delivery plan to tackle rural crime, with a rural crime team already in place to act as a contact point for farmers and residents. In Dyfed Powys, Chris Salmon has worked with his chief constable so that all stations there now operate on a “when we’re in, we’re open” principle—if a member of the public calls at a station when an officer is in, the caller will be attended to.

The point that I made about public scrutiny bears repeating. PCCs are subject to public scrutiny in a way that police authorities never were. The public now know whom to turn to and whom to hold responsible if they have concerns regarding policing in their area. We know that 73% of the public in England and Wales are now aware of the role of PCCs, which contrasts with the 7% of the public who knew what to do if they had a complaint under the old police authorities.

[Stephen Doughty]

The Minister has been generous in giving way. What is his relationship with the PCCs in Wales? What specific concerns have they raised with him to which he has been able to respond positively? Is he able to give any examples? For example, has he discussed police funding for south Wales and Cardiff as the capital city?

[Damian Green]

I regularly meet all the PCCs. I have met the PCCs in Wales as a group. They are, as all people are, energetic in pleading their own cause. I always listen as sympathetically as is sensible.

It is interesting to note the change in the amount of public correspondence that the PCCs receive. Some have reported a fiftyfold increase in public correspondence over the year to date compared with the old police authorities. The public are engaging with the PCCs, and the PCCs are becoming key local leaders across the whole criminal justice system.

I should deal with the case of Carmel Napier, because that was an important part of the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent’s speech. First, I should, as I am sure others who know her would want to, thank Carmel Napier for three decades of service to the police and for her leadership—not just in Gwent, but at a national level—on improving the police response to violence against women and girls.

It is clear under the legislation that it is for police and crime commissioners, not Ministers or Members of Parliament, to make decisions about appointing, suspending and removing chief constables. The process for a PCC to remove a chief constable is set out in legislation and, contrary to some of the points made earlier, includes strict safeguards. There is a police and crime panel, which has a wide remit to review or scrutinise decisions made by a PCC.

As has been mentioned, the PCC has the power to appoint a new chief constable, and has done so in Gwent this week. It is for the commissioner to determine who is best placed to lead the local constabulary. That is provided for in legislation. For the first time, there are confirmation hearings and proper public scrutiny of the event, which in the past happened behind closed doors and in secret.

[Wayne David]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Damian Green]

May I finish this passage? I have been generous in giving way.

The Home Office has issued a circular to advise PCCs and chief constables of the principles and legal requirements for appointing chief officers. In addition, as part of its role in supporting PCCs and chief constables, the College of Policing has developed guidance and a toolkit for making senior appointments. The college also supports PCCs by providing details of career history, skills and qualifications of prospective chief constables to ensure that commissioners have as much information as they need.

[Nick Smith]

The Minister has been generous in giving way. Given the controversy over crime recording in Gwent, will he consider asking Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary to look into the claim that crime figures were capped in Gwent?

[Damian Green]

That was the final point I was determined to get to before I sat down. I reassure the hon. Gentleman that HMIC is in the process of conducting a review of crime recording integrity—precisely his point. That review is of all forces, so it will include Gwent. The integrity of the crime figures in Gwent is being investigated by HMIC as we speak. It will break the investigation down into two parts.

[Nick Smith]

One detail is missing from the Minister’s answer. Will the HMIC please look into the capping of crime figures in Gwent?

[Damian Green]

As I said, HMIC is conducting a general investigation into integrity, and it will no doubt be aware of the hon. Gentleman’s concern.

I hope that I have been able to respond to all the concerns raised by hon. Members. The reforms will continue. I want to see PCCs take a greater role in cross-cutting issues, leading to less wasted police time and bureaucracy and a better use of technology. We want to see more force collaboration and greater public understanding of how their local force functions. We want PCCs in Wales to build on their—