Schools Funding

Clive Efford Excerpts

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

I hear what the hon. Lady says, and I remember also her passionate intervention on Monday. I take note exactly of what she said, and I can only underline again that I apologise for the fact that the information I presented to the House was inaccurate.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

It is extraordinary how this list was produced and put before the House. Let us recall what happened on Monday: the Secretary of State was cuddling the list as if it contained secret information, and he slipped bits out only as they were forced from him in response to questions from Opposition Members. Therefore some of us on the Opposition Benches suspect that the Secretary of State knew that the list was not complete and that there were errors in it when he was delivering it in the House—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to resume his seat. I would not want to misunderstand the hon. Gentleman, but I am gaining an impression that he is suggesting that—[Interruption.] Order. I am gaining an impression that he is suggesting that the Secretary of State was engaged in a knowing deception. [Interruption.] I really do not believe that to be so, and to my knowledge there is certainly no evidence for that, and I cannot have a Member accusing any other Member of knowing deception—of deliberately misleading people—unless that can be substantiated.

[Clive Efford]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

I think it would be better if the hon. Gentleman left it there, but I will allow him a sentence to try to clarify his position.

[Clive Efford]

I did say that some of us suspect that that is the case, Mr Speaker, and if you ask me to withdraw that, I will obviously do so, but I think there is something that needs to be investigated further in the way that the Secretary of State treated the House. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. What I would say to the hon. Gentleman is that I have given a ruling and I think it is a fair one. I asked the hon. Gentleman to clarify his position, but it has not moved me, if I may say so. However, he is a very experienced parliamentarian—he and I came into the House together—and if he wants to table questions or write letters or both, and to engage in all sorts of other activities that satisfy him in relation to this subject, I do not think he will require any encouragement from me to do so.

Points of Order

Clive Efford Excerpts

Monday 5th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The shadow Secretary of State has now twice, very clearly, made his point about the timing of the release of the documents to non-Members of Parliament. The Secretary of State has offered a form of apology; whether he wishes to add to that is a matter for him.

As for the other important matter raised by the shadow Secretary of State, namely what he regards as a slur on his good name, I must tell him that, procedurally, it is not a matter for me. It is a matter of debate, and I have a feeling that it will be the subject of continued exchanges between the two titans for some time to come.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I hope you will agree that the House is being treated with contempt this afternoon. One copy of that list was finally put in the Library, and those who were queuing to try to obtain it were unable to return to the Chamber before the end of the statement. That is a complete and utter disgrace. Will you try to find out when it was decided to put the copy of the list in the Library? It is highly suspicious that the Secretary of State did not make clear in his statement that a copy was in the Library; we forced it out of him that it had been done while he was making the statement. Will you also find out, Mr. Speaker, when the copy actually went into the Library? It is impossible for us to question the Secretary of State on what is going on in our constituencies unless we have the details.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, I hope that you will compare the statement with the list that was in the press over the weekend, because the substance of the statement was what was in that list. We heard nothing from the Secretary of State in the House today that had not been in the newspapers over the weekend.

[Mr Speaker]

The first point that I will make to the hon. Gentleman is this. I think I have already made clear—but let me underline the point—that it is not sufficient simply to provide the Library with a copy of a document. If the document appertains to a matter that is currently before the House, in order to aid and abet Members in their scrutiny duties, copies of that relevant document should be available in the Vote Office, on the Table of the House, or, better still, both.

Secondly, let me say to the hon. Gentleman that we cannot have a continued exchange on every point of detail now. I have, I think, made clear that, whether inadvertently or not—I leave others to judge—the House has been unfairly and discourteously treated. I have made that point extremely robustly, and I do not think that I need add to it at this stage.

As for what the hon. Gentleman said about what was in the media, I am happy to undertake my own reading at an appropriate time. I suggest to the Secretary of State, who is listening to these exchanges—[Interruption.] The Secretary of State may wish to add to whatever apology he has already uttered, but I suggest to him that it would be helpful if he would look into the matter of timing of release of documents by his Department and report back to me, because it is clearly a matter of interest to Members of the House.

Education Funding

Clive Efford Excerpts

Monday 5th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

I appreciate my hon. Friend’s determination to ensure that dilapidation forms part of the criteria for our capital review. I can confirm that we want to ensure that those schools that are in the worst state receive the most favourable treatment possible in future, given the constrained financial circumstances in which we are all operating.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

This is an absolute disgrace. The Secretary of State has a list that he is reading from. He could have stated at the outset that the list was in the Library, so that Members could have asked him about what was happening in our constituencies. Can he tell the House whether there are any phase 1 schools for which he has stopped projects and whether there are any phase 5 schools that are going ahead? We need to know what is going on in our constituencies, because we have learned nothing today that was not in the papers over the weekend.

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Gentleman makes the point that we need to know what is going on in our constituencies. The point that I would make is that inevitably, because of the complicated way in which Building Schools for the Future was arranged, there is confusion. However, I can say that I believe that the phase 1 projects in his constituency—I hope that he will confirm this—of Broadoak, Crown Woods, Eltham Hill and Thomas Tallis are unaffected. The academy base for Eltham Hill is under discussion, but I am afraid that in four other areas the later wave of projects has been stopped because they have not yet reached financial close.