Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Clive Betts and Graham Stuart

Thursday 5th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Graham Stuart]

My right hon. Friend is correct to highlight the importance of Heathrow and transatlantic links with the US and beyond—not only for exports, but for foreign direct investment. I am sure that he and the rest of the House will be kept informed as Government policy develops.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

T9. In the middle of last year, I visited the port of Rotterdam, a major trading port for us—for goods from not just within the EU but outside it as well. At the time, that port was taking on more than 300 new customs officers and more than 100 new vets for the trade in animals and animal products. Will the Secretary of State confirm whether the UK ports are making similar arrangements? If so, can she give the House an estimate of the cost?

Local Government Finance

Debate between Clive Betts and Graham Stuart

Tuesday 10th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

This Parliament will clearly go down as the Parliament of austerity, but let us go back to 2010 and look at the situation when we began this journey. At the general election in 2010 the economy was growing—[Interruption.] I know Conservative Members do not like to hear that, but it was growing. The Government made a commitment in the coalition agreement to removing the deficit over the course of this Parliament, but that has not happened, has it? That is because the economy stopped growing because of the immediate severity of the cuts. As a result, not only did that happen, but real wages have not grown, the tax take has been less than anticipated, and the increase in housing benefit paid to people in work has grown substantially. That is why the deficit has been cut to only a third or a half—depending on the definition —of its original level.

[Mr Graham Stuart]

The hon. Gentleman is the only senior commentator I have heard suggest that the economy stalled primarily because of a reduction in Government spending. Surely he should accept that it was to do with the general economic dislocation across the continent of Europe. While the rest of Europe is flatlining, and while this Government have tried to wrestle down the deficit, Britain has returned to growth. We have higher growth this year than any other major economy in the world, and that should be celebrated.

[Mr Betts]

That is interesting. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that the fundamental problem was a major dislocation in Europe and the world because of the banking crisis and collapse, it is difficult to blame it solely on the Labour Government. After the major dislocation and the recession, the economy had started growing by the time of the election in 2010. It then went back into recession. That is what happened.

We are where we are. Through all the austerity and the pain of service cuts, the deficit is at least half of what it was. In other words, the Government have missed their target by at least 50%. That is the position. Nobody will dispute that, will they? It is fairly clear that the Government missed their target by at least 50%.

We have had all that austerity, but has it been fair? Has it been fair to local government as a whole, to Conservative councils as well as Labour councils, because they will make that point strongly? Why has local government been asked to bear the biggest burden? There is another way of putting that: why do Ministers believe that the services our communities receive from their local councils are less important than other public services? That is important.

[Mr Stuart]

We were protecting the health service. You can’t have it both ways.

[Mr Betts]

The hon. Gentleman shouts, “We were protecting the health service,” but social care provided by local councils is as important. Of course, that is not protected from the reductions.

The figures I quoted earlier were from the Local Government Association and the Office for Budget Responsibility, so they are clearly right—perhaps hon. Members want to challenge them. The spending that local authorities can control—which excludes schools, public health, which is ring-fenced, and housing benefit—has fallen from 19% of total public sector current expenditure in 2009-10 to 16% in 2015-16. That is a disproportionate cut in local government spending compared with public spending as a whole. There is another way of looking at it: local government spending as a percentage of GDP has fallen from 4% to 2.9%. That is a significant fall.

The Government have tried to spin the 2015-16 cut as a 1.7% cut in spending power, but we should again look at the figures produced by the LGA, which are based on OBR figures. The real figures that local authorities can control, on a like-for-like basis over the years, excluding the better care fund, council tax and the public health grant, which is ring-fenced, show that the cut is 8.5% in real terms. That is the figure.

Ministers like including spending power and they like the better care fund. Hon. Members should read the exchange that the Communities and Local Government Committee had with the permanent secretary recently. He accepted that the better care fund was not part of the grant from central Government to local authorities. That money is included in the budget of the national health service, in the Department of Health. That is where it is accounted for. Ministers cannot count it in both the Department of Health budget and the Department for Communities and Local Government budget. That would be double counting. Ministers count the better care fund in the Department of Health budget, and say, “Ah. We do not talk about the actual grant and money for local authorities. We talk about spending power.” Although the better care fund is in the Department of Health budget, they say that it is part of local government spending power. That is how they get their calculation down to 1.7%. That is how they do it—by sleight of hand. We cannot have that double counting.

That is not to decry or demean the better care fund. The concept of trying to join up health service and local authority social care is obviously a good one.

[Mr Stuart]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Betts]

I will make a little progress and come back to the hon. Gentleman.

There are major issues. Why are local authorities singled out for bigger cuts? Within local government, why have the deprived communities had the largest cuts? Ministers could make a logical, rational argument. They could say that the authorities with the biggest grant might lose the most grant in cash terms. I might not agree with the argument, but I can see a logic to an argument that says because authorities have so much more money given to them historically, they are likely to lose more when cuts are made. Can Ministers sustain an argument that says authorities historically receiving the most grant, the most needy authorities, should therefore have the biggest percentage cuts? What is the logic for that? It is one thing to argue the biggest amount, in cash terms, should come from authorities with the most cash given to them, but why should they have the biggest percentage cuts? What is the logical argument for that? How can it possibly be right that over the period of this Parliament, between 2010-11 to 2015-16, Sheffield’s spending power—I will use the Minister’s own definitions —has fallen by £230.60 per head and Wokingham’s has fallen by £2.29 per head, only 1% of Sheffield’s fall? How can there be any rational, reasonable justification to explain that cut? How can there be?

[Mr Betts]

Absolutely. As I say, Ministers can make an argument that those who have had the most grant might lose the most cash, but not that they should have bigger percentage cuts. They are the areas in greatest need. In two years’ time, we will have the ridiculous situation where Sheffield and most of the northern cities, such as Liverpool and Manchester, will have a lower spending power per head than Wokingham. Can anyone on the Government Benches justify that? It is simply not reasonable.

The hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), an ex-Minister, said he suspects a future Labour Government would find surreptitious ways to redistribute money back to Labour authorities. I think we can be open about this: this Government have not been surreptitious. They have done it blatantly. They have taken money away from the most needy and given it to the most privileged. That is what they have done, to the point where the spending power of Wokingham in two years’ time will be greater than the spending power of Sheffield on a per-head basis. Sorry, but that is just not reasonable and no one can justify it.

The impact is there for all to see. I went around my constituency last weekend and met people. We talk about the need to join up social care and the health service—of course we need to. Sheffield had a wonderful in-house care service provision called “Care for you”, which dealt with some of the most needy people who were in their own homes and required extensive support. Sheffield ended that service because it was cheaper to go to a private supplier that had lower overheads, mainly because it does not train as well and pays the minimum wage at best. I then met a constituent on Saturday whose elderly father’s carer missed four appointments. After 36 hours his father was found collapsed on his bedroom floor and, of course, was admitted to hospital. Why was he admitted? The care package had failed. Why had it failed? The authority was having to make cuts because of the budget cuts. That is the reality of how things are in local government at present. That is not a bad authority trying to do it on the cheap, but an authority trying to reduce spending, because of the massive cuts it is facing, by another £60 million next year. In the end, much of that will have to fall on social care, the biggest budget.

[Mr Graham Stuart]

The hon. Gentleman talks about double counting. He accepted that the Government had protected the schools budget and the health budget, and that therefore, given the size of those budgets in overall Government expenditure, there would be disproportionate cuts elsewhere. Will he put it on the record that his party would, as it did in Wales, cut the health service to protect local government funding? Tough choices means being clear about what one protects and what one will cut. His party seems to want to have it every which way without telling people the truth.

[Mr Betts]

I think we should also deal with the myth that somehow the NHS has been protected. If we look at the King’s Fund and other commentators—the British Medical Association, certainly, or go to the GPs in my constituency—its spending has gone up in line with general inflation. Unfortunately, though, it has not been sufficient to cope with the increased demand, particularly from elderly people wanting ever more support from community GPs and hospitals.

If we have dealt with half the budget deficit this Parliament, is the Tory party saying that, if it is returned to power, this scale of local government cuts will continue? Can we really contemplate reducing local government spending as a percentage of GDP from 4% to 2.9% and below? If so, we will not be back to 1930s levels of service provision; we will have gone back even further. The graph of doom is coming. Tory councils as well as Labour councils are talking about it. Figures from the Office for Budget Responsibility show that by the end of the next Parliament, if the cuts continue on the same trajectory, we will reach the point where statutory responsibilities take up the whole local government budget, and nothing will be left for discretionary services. But I do not expect Ministers to respond, because, as the damning report from the National Audit Office said:

“The Department does not understand the impact over time of reductions in funding to local authorities, and the potential risks of individual authorities becoming financially unsustainable if reductions continue.”

That is what the NAO said, and that is the reality we are facing up to.

I do not have time to go into all the issues of decentralisation. I am a decentralist, and I speak on behalf of the Select Committee. We would decentralise not merely spending responsibilities, but tax-raising responsibilities, which the Labour Front-Bench team is beginning to move towards, with full responsibility for retaining business rates locally. I hope we can go further, but so far the Government are not prepared to move in that direction.

In conclusion, there are three big questions that the Government have not answered. Why have local authorities had to face more than their fair share of cuts, compared with other Government services, in this Parliament? Why have the poorest authorities faced the largest cuts—far larger than is proportionate? In the end, do Ministers seriously believe that in the next Parliament we can continue with the same level of local cuts and maintain the financial sustainability of local councils and the services they deliver?

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Clive Betts and Graham Stuart

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I support the amendments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), and I also agree with what he said. Amendment 85 stands in my name and seeks to achieve similar ends to my right hon. Friend’s amendment 79 and consequent amendments. My amendment seeks to localise council tax on the basis that local authorities will have the same amount of money in 2013 as in 2012-13, so that we have a consistent base from which to develop and implement the new scheme.

I am in favour of localising council benefits and of not incorporating the reduction scheme into the universal credit scheme. I know that there are differences of view on that even within parties, but linking council tax benefits with the term “benefit” has discouraged many people from applying for something to which they are entitled. In the previous Parliament, the Select Committee conducted an inquiry into the council tax benefit system and suggested that it should, perhaps, be renamed precisely because the word “benefit” discouraged some people—especially those who applied for nothing else and who were not entitled to anything else—from applying for it. After all, it has one of the lowest take-ups of any benefit, particularly among pensioners. Often, they are forgoing merely £2, £3 or £4 a week, but that can be a relatively important sum for people on relatively low incomes.

As I have said, I support the introduction of this reduction scheme and its both being clearly outside universal credit and being linked to council tax in such a way that people pay a reduced amount of that tax. I should point out that earlier today the Minister defended the imposition of an unwanted referendum for local mayors in Sheffield by his Lib Dem colleagues on the city’s council, yet he will now extol the benefits of council tax. That is a somewhat different position from the one he would have adopted only a few months ago.

Although there is general support for the Government’s proposed change, there is also a problem. If one of the aspirations of renaming the council tax benefit as the council tax reduction is to encourage more people to take it up, the consequences for local government are clear. Previously if councillors had gone out on a publicity drive to improve the take-up of what is currently known as this benefit, central Government would have paid for that. Furthermore, if more people take up the benefit—or reduction—there is a cost in that that also fully falls on local authorities. That is a perverse impact of the Government’s proposal.

[Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm my understanding that in a rural coastal area such as the one I represent, which has a high number of elderly people and quite a low take-up of this benefit, if there is a big increase in take-up and there is protection for the elderly, the impact on the council or on the other people entitled to the benefit would be rather large and profound?

[Mr Betts]

I could not have put it better myself; that is precisely right—there will be a perverse incentive. If a council gets the older people who are entitled to claim to do so in greater numbers, other council services will be cut, council tax might increase at some point or, if no more money is spent on the scheme, the benefits of people who are not pensioners will be affected. That is precisely the point.

The problem is not with the Government’s attempt to rebadge the scheme or to localise it, but with the 10% reduction at the beginning, all in one go, and the way in which the Government have framed the restrictions on the extent to which local authorities can implement the reduction. Local authorities can always find extra money to increase the cost of the scheme, but is the Minister really suggesting that it will be possible for any local authority in the current circumstances to find extra resources at a time when services all round are being cut for reasons we all know about?

The 10% restriction or cut in the available Government funding comes in from day one in 2013. Pensioners are going to be protected, and no one in the Opposition is going to argue about protecting pensioners because we want to increase the number of pensioners taking up their entitlements, but that obviously means that the 10% reduction will fall on other people who claim the reduction. That is self-evident. I asked the Minister about this yesterday, because the Local Government Association has kindly put forward the information that about half those claiming the benefit are pensioners, which means that half are not pensioners. So if pensioners are protected, that means a reduction of about 20% for other claimants, does it not?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Betts]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right—the figure of £320 a year or £6 a week is an average, and there will be people who lose significantly more than that. Have the Government done any calculations to show whether the LGA figure is right or wrong? If it is wrong, will they tell us what they believe the correct figure to be? Have they done any analysis regarding the multiple withdrawal of benefits and situations when the council tax benefit reductions that come as a result of this scheme are laid on top of any other benefit reductions that hit the same families? Have they done any calculations of the total losses that such families may face?

My right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) was absolutely right the other day when he said that local authorities are getting a hospital pass here. They are getting a Government scheme with complications, in terms of the totality of the financial arrangements, of which most people will have no understanding. All that people will see is that their council’s scheme will impose cuts in their benefits. It will be councils that get the blame, and no doubt that is where Ministers will firmly put the blame, but it will be grossly and totally unfair.

Another problem is the time scales involved, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich has pointed out. Local authorities will not be able to work at this over a period of time. They have just over 12 months in which to consult on a new scheme, introduce it and explain it to people in their area. There is also the issue of the technology that will come with it, and we know that the technology in new systems being brought in quickly has a habit of going wrong. So not only will many people be faced with the abrupt introduction of these changes affecting their income overnight, but there will be major failings in service delivery as systems do not deliver on time and people end up without any benefit at all.

[Mr Graham Stuart]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again, as I have to leave the Chamber in a moment to meet the chairman of the Commission for Rural Communities. People in rural areas earn on average less than people in urban areas, pay £100 a head more in council tax and see urban areas getting 50% more in central Government grant than rural areas. There is also a higher average age of population in rural areas, so the impact on the rural poor of further skewing could be particularly profound. Will the hon. Gentleman comment on that?

[Mr Betts]

I do not want to get into a debate about whether people in rural areas or urban areas suffer most. The reality is that people throughout the country are likely to suffer and that it will be councils, whether they are Conservative councils in rural areas or Labour councils in metropolitan areas, that get the blame, but it will not be the fault of local councillors, whichever party they represent.

Coming back to my point about speed, I say to the Minister that this is an accident waiting to happen. Some of us have been through significant benefit changes before. When Sheffield outsourced its benefits administration to Capita a few years ago there was complete chaos for 18 months. Some of us have experienced elderly people coming into our surgeries and breaking down in tears because although they have always paid their bills on time they have been unable to do so owing to the fact that their benefit application had not been dealt with appropriately. That is what will happen in the rush that the Government are embarking on. Some councils will get it right but others’ systems will fail because of the speed at which this is being done.