Housing Benefit (Wales)

Clive Betts Excerpts

Thursday 1st May 2014 Westminster Hall

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

I agree with other Committee members, who were kind of schmoozing the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), congratulating him on how he chaired the inquiry. I should mention, in fairness to him, the lovely, careful, measured way in which he spoke today, in his capacity as Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee—apart from the end part of his speech.

A year on from the bedroom tax, which is what I will mostly be talking about, this is a welcome opportunity to consider whether that controversial policy, which has caused so much hardship among my constituents, is working out. I am aware that I have a Privy Counsellor next to me, lining up to speak, and that we do not have much time. This is an important opportunity that allows us as much time as possible to press the Minister on how many of our report’s recommendations he has followed through—few, I suspect, if not none, but I will welcome being corrected at the end if I am wrong.

We need to know more about how the Government are monitoring this measure and how it is working in practice. Although I know, anecdotally, that housing associations, tenants, constituents and tenants associations are struggling, it is important that we hear from the Government what they are doing to monitor the situation.

The situation is different in various parts of Wales. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) said that 600 households in his constituency were affected. In Newport, the figure is more than 2,000. In my part of the Monmouth council area, which I share with the hon. Member for Monmouth, I suspect that a higher proportion of people are affected by the bedroom tax than in his area. It is hitting my constituents harder.

It is worth labouring the point and saying that we, as a Committee, decided to consider this matter because Wales is hit hardest. We heard earlier that more than 40,000 tenants could be affected—46% of working age tenants in Wales, the highest proportion of any region in Great Britain, where the average is 31%. The evidence that we heard in the inquiry, as most hon. Members have mentioned, was that, because our housing stock is different, there would be a lack of sufficient one and two-bedroom homes available in Wales to ensure that everyone who wanted to be re-housed could be.

Obviously, the Government’s two stated aims were to save money and to make the most efficient use of housing stock. In the numerous debates that we have had on this subject in the past year, we Opposition Members have mentioned real, hard cases, showing how the bedroom tax has hit disabled people who have had adaptations done to their homes, divorced parents who have their children to stay at the weekend and want to maintain that relationship, and people who just cannot afford to stay in their home and community, because they cannot afford to pay extra.

Clearly, the Government ignore the real impacts of these cases that we have repeatedly raised with them and always respond with the usual battery of figures. I make no apology for talking about just a few cases that have been brought to me, because, after all, if we do not know what is happening on the ground, we do not know how this policy is panning out.

In one case recently, a mother and her 30-year-old disabled son were desperate for him to be able develop his independence. An appropriate adapted property was being found for him, but the mother would then have been hit by the bedroom tax. She had no means of paying the extra money and no hope of moving to a smaller property.

I have seen numerous divorced parents at my constituency surgery, whose kids come to stay with them on weekends and during the holidays. Recently, a man had been laid off from his job, with no ability to pay the extra money involved. He was aghast that he should take in a lodger, as the Government suggested, because that would mean that his children would have nowhere to sleep when they came to stay. A woman called up, horrified, when she realised that she and her 11-year-old son who has severe autism would be penalised for the sensory room, recommended by the paediatrician, that was essential for him.

It is no surprise that Newport and Caldicot citizens advice bureaux, which I visited over Easter, and the food banks, report that the benefits changes, including the bedroom tax, are the biggest issues that people want help with. Are people moving to smaller properties and is that leading to a greater use of housing stock? No. As my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) mentioned, according to figures obtained by the BBC, only 6% of tenants affected have moved. As has been mentioned, we identified in our report that a lack of sufficient one and two-bedroom properties is a particular issue in Wales. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation found that, by November last year, 22% of those still affected by the legislation remained registered for a transfer or mutual exchange.

Housing associations are being creative. Newport City Homes is trying to be innovative. It has been forced to change its policy for housing previously designated for over-60s. That has had a knock-on effect, causing anxiety among elderly residents in settled communities. It is a difficult change.

What is happening to those who cannot move? The National Housing Federation has found that two thirds of households affected cannot find the money to pay up and arrears are stacking up. Last year, I researched housing associations in Wales and discovered that there had been a 51% increase in rent arrears for those affected by the bedroom tax. Figures from the Community Housing Cymru sector survey show that the bedroom tax has led to rent arrears of more than £2 million. It estimates that that means that the financial capacity to build 1,000 affordable homes has been lost in Wales.

Bron Afon housing association—I apologise to my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) for always mentioning that housing association in his constituency—said that coping measures to deal with this will

“eat into money that would otherwise be used to build houses”

and that housing associations will have to

“divert more money to survive rather than develop”.

Wales and West Housing Association has conducted research into the impact on disabled people and the cost of adaptations. It says that it would cost the public purse some £40 million to adapt smaller properties and that that

“makes no financial sense whatsoever as it could wipe out the potential savings in housing benefit for many years”.

The Committee heard evidence that people’s moving to the private rented sector would be a more expensive option in many areas. According to the Library, the amount of housing benefit paid to private landlords would rise from £7.9 billion to £9.4 billion.

I know first hand that tenants and housing associations are struggling. I should like the Minister to explain how he has addressed the recommendations in our report: specifically, whether and how he has monitored how hard it is for local authorities and housing associations to find smaller accommodation; how the Government have monitored the cost of accommodation in the private rented sector, as we asked in the report, following the introduction of this policy; how he has monitored the impact on disabled people and the cost of their adaptations; and how direct payments, which no hon. Members in this debate have had much time to touch on, are monitored.

I hope that, given the time available, there is a chance for the Government to provide us with a substantive response on these issues.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

Order. We are constrained for time. We need to get to the end of this debate by 3.30 pm and four Opposition Members want to speak: Paul Murphy, Madeleine Moon, Geraint Davies and Huw Irranca-Davies. The Front-Bench spokesmen need 10 minutes each, so there is 10 minutes for the four of you. That is not very much time, but if you can manage that between you it would help to let everybody in.

[David T. C. Davies]

On a point of order, Mr Betts. Other Members have told me that they would be quite relaxed if the second debate was cut short. I am clearly in the hands of Labour Members, but as Chair of the Select Committee I would be perfectly relaxed if the first debate ran on a bit and the second was cut a bit. I would not want to impose, but I believe that that is the general view of Committee members.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

That is helpful. If that is the general feeling of the Select Committee, I am more than happy to reflect that. If we take another 10 minutes off the other debate, that gives us five minutes for each of the four speakers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

It is great to serve under your stewardship this afternoon, Mr Betts. I commend the way that the debate was introduced by the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), the Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee, as well as the speeches that have been made and the work that the Committee does. I will add only a few points.

In my constituency, the policy is about as popular as the poll tax was. There is a march today in Bridgend. I would love to be there, but like my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), I am speaking up in Parliament on behalf of constituents; otherwise we would be there. I have spoken on platforms in Cardiff and elsewhere in direct opposition to the rule. The Minister will have heard repeated, emphatic and passionate accounts of the impact of the policy on individuals. Undoubtedly, many people are being pushed below the UN definition of poverty. The situation in the Bridgend area that my hon. Friend and I represent—the local authority area covers two parliamentary constituencies—is not unrelated to what one report says is a tenfold increase in the number of people seeking debt advice after getting payday loans. Those matters are related.

The present state of affairs is not distant from the fact that the Government’s report on food aid that came out after a year’s delay showed that the reason for the number of people being driven to use food banks is not increased publicity about food banks, as the Prime Minister said at Prime Minister’s questions the other day. There are three factors, and two are directly related to Government policy. One is benefit changes, and the second is delays in benefits. I could give the Minister the third, which is also related to the Government, but I will leave it at those two. Those things are tied in, and are part and parcel of the issue.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) rightly said that there is a complete failure of understanding about the importance of social housing in parts of Wales—particularly south Wales. That housing is regarded not as a unit of accommodation but as a lifetime home. People have long aspired to be in their home, and not to be in private rented accommodation, which may well be the aspiration in—I do not know—Belgravia or somewhere. They aspire to be in either council accommodation or social housing through a housing association. That is why people have really been angered.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend produced a plethora of data, and they apply to my constituency as well as hers. Within the past few months, Community Housing Cymru has produced an analysis showing that 78% of its members—35 housing association members in Wales provide 156,000 homes to 10% of the Welsh population—have seen a rise in rent arrears. The analysis showed 855 larger properties lying empty and that figure was expected to increase in the next 12 months. It showed that only 3% of tenants downsize, and I can confirm that that is true of my constituency: something like 25 people from about 1,000 properties have downsized. Also, members will deliver more than 1,200 fewer affordable homes, because they will be servicing a £40 million debt as a result of the policy.

We can have a debate about whether the policy is callous and cruel, which I think it is, but we need to debate the fact that it was dumped into areas such as mine overnight, without foresight or planning to enable alternative properties to be provided. The ineptitude of the decision, which means that housing associations will convert and build fewer properties, is causing misery. I ask the Minister to act according to the word and the spirit of what Lord Freud said when he spoke to the all-party group on housing, about evidence of “in extensis” impact on areas. There undoubtedly is one. I can see the Minister smiling. There is an impact—not just on my constituents, but on housing associations in my constituency. Will the Minister accept a delegation of not simply tenants but housing associations and local authorities from south Wales to talk about what “in extensis” means and how we can avoid the impacts being prolonged any further?

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

We move on to the Front-Bench spokesmen, who have 10 minutes each.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Webb]

No—I have only one and a quarter minutes left. Why did we not hear about the 13,000 people in Wales living in overcrowded social sector accommodation? Where was their voice in the debate? What about the people living in overcrowded private sector accommodation, or the 90,000 people on housing waiting lists?

There is a whole set of unmet housing need while we have people under-occupying social rented accommodation —through no fault of their own, so it is not a criticism of them, but it is a fact. The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) said that when people’s kids grow up, they should go on being able to live in a big family house, but what about the people who would love a big family house, but cannot get it because it is under-occupied? We have to help people with the transition, but that is why substantial additional DHPs have been found.

Finally, on the specific issue of adapted accommodation. We would have loved it had we been able to write a law in Whitehall that said, “This is adapted; this isn’t. Here is how we define it in an Act of Parliament or a statutory instrument. We will have a blanket exemption.” That would have been great. We looked hard, but we could not think of a national and consistent way of defining what it was. We therefore found the money instead—£25 million across Great Britain, which was our estimate of the cost of buying out the impact on substantially adapted properties. No one in the country living in a substantially adapted property who goes to a local authority should be turned away because there is not the money for DHP. We have given the local authorities the money, and that should not need to happen.

There is lots more that I would love to say, but I am constrained by time. I hope that I have been able to give some responses to the questions asked by the Chairman of the Committee.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

I will ask the Chairman of the Select Committee to respond briefly to this debate and then to introduce the second debate, which is on the Work programme in Wales. While that is happening, will hon. Members who want to speak in that debate indicate that to me? It will be helpful in apportioning the time.