Draft Employment Tribunals and Employment Appeal Tribunal (Composition of Tribunal) Regulations 2023

Chris Stephens Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 General Committees

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Elliott. As you are aware, I have an extensive trade union background—in fact, I remember we both served on the Committee considering the Bill that became the Trade Union Act 2016. The Minister is always talking me into seeking a Division, and his answers will determine whether I do so today.

As the Minister outlined, there are some concerns about judge-only panels and removing lay members from particular types of case. Does he envisage discrimination or whistleblowing cases, for example, being heard by a judge alone? There would be real concern if lay members were not part of the process, because the lay members have the specialist knowledge of workplace realities needed to determine what has actually happened in such cases. Another worrying example is cases involving illegal deduction of wages. There have already been moves to make such cases judge-only and short-tracked, and there is a dangerous precedent for cases of unfair dismissal.

I hope the Minister answers those questions, because I share the very real concerns the trade union movement expressed in their consultation response about the approach the Government are taking, which may lead to more unfairness in the system.

[Mike Freer]

Without prejudging what the Senior President will announce, I expect that where lay members have expertise to give, particularly on trade union membership or non-membership, they will continue to be used because they add value. If the case is about a narrow point of law, where legal training is needed, that is what I expect the judge to focus on.

If the proposals brought forward are unsatisfactory, the Lord Chancellor has the right to “undelegate” the powers. We think this is the right thing to do, because it allows flexibility. Also trying to put multi-member panels together can be resource intensive and time consuming, and sometimes the lay members do not have a particular skill to add. The instrument offers more flexibility and more speed.

Perhaps I can reassure the hon. Member for Glasgow South West by saying that at some point this will be a devolved matter. The Ministry of Justice and the Scottish Government have almost concluded discussions on how to devolve the powers, so any concerns can be addressed locally.

[Chris Stephens]

I thank the Minister for that reply. He mentioned that after the Senior President has reached a decision, the Lord Chancellor has the right to unpick it, but what mechanisms are there to report back to Parliament? Would there be a statement in the House, so that if we had concerns about the Senior President’s decision making, we could raise them in the House?

[Mike Freer]

The delegation of any powers by the Lord Chancellor can be reversed. That is the nuclear option. If Members have concerns about what the Senior President is proposing, let me give some thought to the best mechanism for giving voice to those concerns—whether we come back to debate the matter, or use some other mechanism. That is a perfectly legitimate ask, but let me give some thought to the matter. I am more than happy to have a private conversation with the hon. Gentleman. I will, if Members are happy for me to do so, write to the members of the Committee setting out what I think is the best way to ensure that concerns about the detailed proposals are discussed and addressed.

Question put and agreed to.