Energy Charter Treaty

Debate between Chris Skidmore and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Westminster Hall

[Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this house has considered the Energy Charter Treaty.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I am grateful to the Minister responding today. I know he is currently very busy, preparing the finishing touches to the Government’s response to the net zero review, which I submitted as the review’s independent chair. I hope he will excuse me taking this chance to place on his ministerial desk another precious opportunity for the UK to demonstrate clear and decisive climate leadership.

I know that the Minister is all too aware of the opportunity that net zero and green growth present to the UK: new industries, new jobs and a wall of inward investment ready to be deployed into the UK if we are prepared to take the net zero pathway, rather than taking the risk of not zero and turning our backs on the economic opportunity of this decade, if not the century, that net zero provides.

The new economic narrative for net zero that the “Mission Zero” report outlines clearly demonstrates that the choices that the Minister and the Government will make this month—March 2023—over our future net zero investments and policy certainty will potentially define his place in climate and clean-energy history, if he acts now. The rest of the world is watching and waiting to see whether the UK will continue to show international leadership on climate policy.

I suggest that there is another opportunity to deliver international leadership on climate, which is achievable today, that the Minister and the Government can seize while the rest of the world watches and waits to see whether the UK will demonstrate international leadership. The UK Government can make a clear and public commitment to withdraw from the energy charter treaty. That treaty is an investment agreement dating back to the mid-1990s, when the focus was on access to oil and gas reserves in former Soviet countries, and when work to tackle climate change, and recognition of the opportunities of clean and renewable energy, was negligible. Today, the energy charter treaty acts as a millstone around the necks of all signatories who wish to take their climate obligations seriously.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The right hon. Gentleman’s interest in Northern Ireland is always significant. When I ask a question, I am always aware he probably knows the answer, for which I thank him. The aim of the energy charter treaty is to promote energy security through open and competitive markets. Although that is great for the English mainland, in Northern Ireland it is restricted to providers, and the competition is diminished. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that competitive markets must be available across all of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so that we can all get the benefit? I know he is saying we should withdraw, but Northern Ireland is already behind the eight ball, as it is.

[Chris Skidmore]

If the hon. Gentleman looks at the details of the treaty, which I will come to, he will see that it does not create a level playing field for competition. It is weighted in favour of fossil fuel interests. He knows full well, given his interest in clean energy, how Northern Ireland could become a future green energy powerhouse. It wants to ensure that it can continue to build onshore wind turbines, with a huge opportunity for providing green hydrogen. The challenge the energy charter treaty provides to the UK, and Northern Ireland as a proud member of the UK, is that it takes those potential clean and renewable investments and weights them disproportionately against existing fossil fuel commitments that no other country wishes to make. That is a challenge that we need to deal with.

The charter is a relic from a bygone age, which should have long been recognised as serving an obsolete purpose that still places its dead hand across all states that signed it three decades ago, preventing climate investments and, worse, prioritising inexcusable investments in oil and gas, even when the countries themselves do not wish to make them. The energy charter treaty has effectively become a Magna Carta for fossil fuels, and it is being weaponised by fossil fuel companies to sue Governments for introducing climate policies.

Recently, Italy was sued for its ban on offshore oil drilling. The Netherlands has been sued for its coal phase-out law. Several companies have taken the Dutch Government to court for their decision to phase out fossil fuels by 2030, claiming damages of €3.5 billion. Slovenia has also been sued for its fracking ban

Independent Review of Net Zero

Debate between Chris Skidmore and Jim Shannon

Thursday 9th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Skidmore]

It needs to be sooner than that. Basically, we have an opportunity now for the Government to look at the recommendations in the report.

The report is divided into two sections. The first part is a new narrative on net zero. As the chair of the net zero review team, I put on record my thanks to my fantastic team of 22 dedicated civil servants who were drawn from across all Departments. I can see one in the Box now, who is working with the Minister. If it was not for the team, we would not have produced a report of such quality. We set out a new narrative on net zero. It is not some kind of eco-project or religion, and I do not stand here thinking that I want the imposition from the centre of top-down policies. I recognise that the challenge we face is to ensure that everyone in society is able to see the opportunities of the energy transition for the future. There will be challenges, and the report is open about those challenges and costs. At the same time, there is an international opportunity: we are now in a global net zero race. We can either continue to lead or we will follow, and the cost of following will always be greater than the opportunity of showing first mover advantage. There are no free rider opportunities here.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The right hon. Gentleman said that he had been to all regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to ascertain opinions for the independent review. Can he tell us what the opinions were in Northern Ireland? Were they similar to everywhere else, so we can go forward collectively? If we can do that, we can achieve our goals. We cannot achieve them if we are divided.

[Chris Skidmore]

I had a fascinating opportunity to visit Belfast to hold two separate evidence roundtables. The first was with Belfast City Council, which gave me the public sector perspective on the challenges of decarbonisation and the public estate in Northern Ireland. The second roundtable was with private business and industry, with the Belfast chamber of trade and commerce. What I took from that opportunity to speak specifically about Northern Ireland’s concerns and opportunities was that there are challenges in Northern Ireland. In particular, it will probably achieve net zero later than 2050. On our overall UK net zero target, that is the case for both Northern Ireland and Wales. For Scotland, it will be a bit sooner, in 2045, as I am sure the Minister knows given that his constituency is at the forefront of bringing forward some of the green opportunities that will allow Scotland to go further and faster.

Action on Climate Change and Decarbonisation

Debate between Chris Skidmore and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 5th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Skidmore]

My hon. Friend is entirely right about one aspect of this. He mentioned efficiency and productivity. Obviously the UK faces a huge productivity challenge. We are speaking in Parliament and discussing the importance of politicians to making this energy transition, but it is already happening even without us. Private companies across the UK, and indeed the world, are saying that they would want to go to net zero even if there were not a climate crisis, because they recognise the opportunities for productivity, for disruption, for achieving better efficiencies, and for thinking differently. That is what makes net zero so important: the wholesale transformation, into the 21st century, which recognises that we cannot be dependent on unsustainable fossil fuels that will ultimately run out.

The Russian war against Ukraine has demonstrated that we cannot be held hostage by petrostates for the future. We must do something about that, and I think current messaging means that far more people support net zero. This is the year when climate change and net zero went mainstream. I think that all politicians, particularly certain politicians on my side of the Chamber, are at risk of not being on the public side of the argument. They need to understand that this has to happen, not just for the sake of the climate, but for the benefit of our economy.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

rose—

[Caroline Lucas]

rose—

[Chris Skidmore]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman and then to the hon. Lady, but after that I must get on, because I do not want use up all my time with interventions.

[Jim Shannon]

I agree with what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I live in an agricultural community. I live on a farm, and all my neighbours are farmers. Let me give an example of the current pressures. Last week I spoke to the farmer next door, who is not just a very big dairy farmer but also a contractor. He has, I think, eight or 10 tractors and trailers on the road, and he employs 12 people. He told me that the cost of diesel was up by at least 100%, and the price of fertiliser by 300%. When it comes to the financial equations, he is staring at stark reality. With respect, speaking as someone who agrees with the objectives put forward by the right hon. Gentleman and others in the Chamber, maybe we need a wee bit more time, because at the moment some farmers are under so much pressure to make ends meet. They are faced with costs that they have never seen before in all their life. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree?

[Chris Skidmore]

With respect, I do not. We do not have any more time. We have 28 years until 2050. It has been 30 years since we began these discussions and since the formation of the United Nations framework convention on climate change. We have seen the emission, since 1990, of 50% of all carbon dioxide emitted by the world in the entirety of human history. The argument that we need to go more slowly belies the fact that net zero is the slowest possible path on which we can travel while hopefully retaining a chance of hitting 1.5°. The consequences of not hitting 1.5°, or 2°, or even 4°, God forbid, will be more catastrophic for local businesses, and for farmers such as the hon. Gentleman’s friend.

The Po valley, normally one of the wettest areas of Italy, is now dry because seawater is flooding into the river. That is the reality of what is happening. Farmers throughout the world are, because of climate change, becoming less productive, and are becoming unable to produce the food that they once could. We need to be able to look them in the face. We, the industrialised nations that have this leadership, need to take action to ensure that all countries take this opportunity while we still have time—and that time is, sadly, ticking away.

Let me turn to the details of the estimates. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne) referred to the estimate from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, which is on page 9 of the Library pack. It claims that

“£11.6 billion for the £400 energy bills reduction announced as part of the Cost-of-Living measures package”

contributes to the net zero target. That is simply not true. The £400 that is going out of the door to subsidise gas and other fossil fuel usage is exactly the same amount that a household would save every single year in a property that was in band C of the energy performance certificate rating. This is the economic reality of net zero. Once a capital cost investment is made, we are looking at savings, year in, year out, whether that is through the production of renewable wind or solar energy, or through energy efficiency. That is what we need to be talking about when we are discussing net zero measures, not the false creative accounting that we see in the estimates.

We should also look at the Treasury’s spending plans for net zero. My right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow mentioned the period 2023-24, when the plan is for spending to rise to £8 billion a year, before it falls back to £7.7 billion in 2024-25, so actually we are going backwards. Of course we want to ensure that private sector uptake and investment continues; it cannot just be the state making these investments. We have to look at how we can draw in greater private sector investment, and I will come on to that in a moment. The reality is that if we have such balance sheets without having a longer-term sustainable programme for delivering net zero, we will always have these measures.

We need a coalescing target, just as net zero-ers have been able to coalesce around a single target. When I was Science and Research Minister, we had a target spend of 2.4% of both public and private gross domestic product on research and development by 2027, although we may fall short of that. Other countries such as China are going to hit 3.5%, and countries such as Israel are already about to hit 5% of GDP, both public and private, on R&D. Yesterday, the Prime Minister talked about spending 2.5% of GDP on defence by 2050. Where is the GDP target figure for net zero? We should set ourselves a far-reaching goal, and commit ourselves to that spending, both private and public, to demonstrate the investment that is needed for net zero.

There are far too many small pots of funding—we have talked about the green homes grant—and that creates a concertina effect, whereby people apply for a funding scheme, but we do not have the skills to deliver the product that is needed. As a result, these programmes ultimately do not achieve the targets they set out to achieve. I believe that moving away from small pots of funding to longer-term plans through which we can finance net zero should be the way forward. To deliver that, we should think about setting a net zero finance target for the UK every year, and on estimates day, we should talk about that, rather than using false figures in our accounting to claim that we have delivered an additional budgetary impact on net zero.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Skidmore and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 21st January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Chris Skidmore]

I thank my hon. Friend for his work as vice-chairman of a newly formed all-party parliamentary group, the parliamentary space committee. I know that he plans to fly to the United States next month to attend the launch of the European Space Agency’s solar orbiter, which was built in Stevenage. It is a fantastic piece of UK science engineering and was funded by the Government to the tune of £216 million.

I understand that the space industry has proposed a space innovation fund, and I am interested in working with the industry on that. The national space council will consider how we can build on existing commitments through a comprehensive UK space strategy, which will help to create thousands of jobs across the country.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is good to hear what the Minister says about the space sector, but may I ask him specifically how all the regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will benefit from that potential, and, in particular, how Northern Ireland will benefit?

[Chris Skidmore]

Last year, during a fantastic trip to the Belfast region, I had an opportunity to meet representatives of Thales Alenia Space, which is working on some of the capsules that encase satellite technology. The hon. Gentleman was absolutely right to ask that question. Our national space strategy constitutes a one nation approach that will involve every part of the UK, from a horizontal launch site down in Newquay in Cornwall to a vertical launch site up in Sutherland in Scotland—we are also thinking about establishing a spaceport in Wales. Every part of the UK will be involved in space, and rightly so.

Climate Change

Debate between Chris Skidmore and Jim Shannon

Monday 24th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Skidmore]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that excellent point, and he is right. When we consider any impact on wider society of introducing this legislation over the next few decades, while we may see short-term costs from the transformation, we need to look at the investment opportunities that will be created by new green jobs, which are expected to rise from the 400,000 figure he mentions to 2 million by 2030, potentially creating an economy worth over £150 billion in the longer term. It is important that that investment is recognised, because we want the UK to lead the world in future technologies such as carbon capture and storage. The legislation today provides a catalytic moment for us to look at how we can achieve this target and to invest for the future. The Treasury review will lead into the spending review and we will wish to look at how we can continue to invest in clean growth as a technology.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the Government on bringing this proposal forward and assure him of my party’s support. I want to put that on record today. This issue is a topic of conversation every day in my office: it has become that sort of issue. Will the Minister outline how he intends to bring businesses along on the climate change agenda and ensure that they are encouraged, rather than forced, to make small changes that could make lasting changes globally? It would be great to bring small businesses along, as it would be a step in the right direction.

[Chris Skidmore]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his leadership on the issue. We have had several conversations in the past few weeks on the legislation, but he is right that we have to take a whole of the United Kingdom approach to this. I know that it is more difficult for certain industries to make the changes that are needed, but for small businesses and those groups that we know will have questions or difficulties in making the transition, we will want to be able to set that out clearly. The energy White Paper will be published shortly, as the first in a series of documents to demonstrate the changes and consultations that we need. I reassure the hon. Gentleman that those consultations will allow the voice of small business to be heard in this debate. It is possible to achieve the changes, and we want to make sure that small businesses feel reassured of that.

Smart Cities

Debate between Chris Skidmore and Jim Shannon

Monday 24th June 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

It is not just Belfast, but its peripheries: it is my constituency of Strangford; my council area of Ards and North Down; Lisburn and Castlereagh City Council; Mid and East Antrim Borough Council; and Newtownabbey Borough Council. Belfast and its surrounding areas all benefit—that benefit is for everyone.

[Chris Skidmore]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Setting out the benefits beyond the inner city locations is so crucial. When it comes to dealing with the issues of science and technology, we need to demonstrate the need for smart cities that will improve congestion and public transport.

I have not yet touched on the critical need to make sure that the lives and experiences of disabled people are better met in our cities. As Universities Minister, I am really keen that inclusivity must be mainstreamed. We should not be thinking about disabled people as part of the strategies; they should be at the centre of any strategy. That is the same in a university campus as in an inner-city location or a pedestrianised zone in a shopping centre. Placing the needs of disabled people at the heart of a vision from the very beginning is also critical in the design of smart cities for the future. Any local authority should make sure that it takes those issues of inclusivity absolutely to heart.

I conclude on a point of principle. The Government are committed to spending 2.4% of GDP on research and development—both private and public spend; at the moment, roughly a third of that spend is public and two thirds private. At the moment, we spend 1.7% on research and development. Other countries such as the United States, Germany, South Korea and even China are spending vastly more than us. That allows them to make advances that we must match.

Hitting 2.4% of GDP by 2027—the Government’s target—will just take us to the OECD baseline. We have to be able to make that investment, which would mean increasing the amount we spend on research and development across the public and private sectors from about £35 billion a year to £60 billion. To do that, we must convince SMEs to change their business models and recognise the value of research and development.

For example, we set up a robotics strategy in 2013. We invested about £386 million as a Government in robotics, and we leveraged in private capital of over £1 billion as a result. We need to see how we can increase that leverage; at the moment, the private sector puts in roughly £1.40 for every pound we spend on research and development in areas such as smart cities. In Germany, the figure is nearer £2.40 and in Israel it is about £3. We could be doing more to ensure a greater sum total pot for research and development on smart cities and the technologies that underpin them. However, we have to be able to make that initial public investment.

I have been giving a series of speeches about the road to 2.4%. First, I have covered the critical issue of people—investing in universities and future research leaders. Secondly, I have spoken about international partnerships; I am delighted that the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow took part in the delegation to the United States, setting out the new countries with which we wish to work for the future. Thirdly, I have been focusing on the new technologies such as quantum and robotics—the underpinning of smart cities and a future R&D strategy. My fourth speech on 10 July will be about how we can increase leverage and private investment for the future.

All four speeches relate to the key point of smart cities, which will happen and expand into our regions, towns and villages only if we make the investment in research and development in the longer term. We will need to spend £60 billion across the private and public sectors by 2027. We will need a catalytic moment from the public sector.

As science and technology Minister, I am also determined to ensure that we increase spend on clean and green technology for the future. The debate earlier focused on carbon capture, utilisation and storage. It is the regions that are coming up with some of the great new ideas; on Thursday, I will be going to Cheshire to look at some of the latest technology in that area. We do need to invest publicly as well as trying to increase private investment. The 2.4% figure must be a cornerstone of this Government’s and any future Government’s desire to meet the net zero target by 2050.

I am delighted that the hon. Lady secured this debate. It has highlighted some of the challenges that will lead to huge opportunities if we make that commitment to spending 2.4% on research and development. We can reach out to the whole country. Rather than research being focused in certain cities, we will be able to make sure that everyone in this country can share the proceeds of growth from research and development. We are looking at smart cities, but every town can be a smart town and every village a smart village.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Skidmore and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 8th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Thank you. We are now considerably better informed.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Will the Minister outline how many new jobs have been created to meet the need for 30,000 new employees that was highlighted in last May’s “Prosperity from Space” report?

[Chris Skidmore]

The sector currently employs around 38,500 people and has grown significantly since 1999-2000, when 14,651 were working in the sector—that represents an annual growth rate of 6.7%. The UK has committed to ensuring that we grow our share of the global space market to 10% by 2030. That offers huge potential for increasing not just our share of the market, but the UK’s prosperity and productivity. I hope that the “Prosperity from Space” report, which was published by the space sector and my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), whom I thank, will lead to a deal for the space sector and, potentially, to investigation of a national space programme—

History Teaching

Debate between Chris Skidmore and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Chris Skidmore]

When we look at the nature of the curriculum itself, we see that there have been historical problems. My hon. Friend was a secondary school history teacher before he entered this House and therefore has a wealth of experience—probably more than me—of what actually happens in schools with teaching history. He also knows that, although we may talk about the curriculum and assessment and examination structures, if we are going to make history compulsory to 16, for pupils themselves history will only be as good as the teachers who teach it, which is obviously a crucial issue. We all remember our great teachers when we were at school. I had great history teachers, which was one reason why I ended up on the road to becoming a historian before I entered this place.

The Ofsted report, “History for all”, showed that history teaching was “good” or “outstanding” in 63 out of the 83 primary schools that Ofsted assessed, and “good” or “outstanding” in 59 out of 83 secondary schools that it assessed. Nevertheless, the report expressed genuine concerns about the quality of the subject training for teachers.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this issue to Westminster Hall today. As he has said, history is not just about dates and events, because it is about more than those things. It is also about learning the lessons of lives that were well lived and the lessons of lives that were poorly lived, and perhaps about telling the difference between the two. Does he agree that education in history is much more important than just teaching the facts, figures and dates of history?

[Chris Skidmore]

One of the reasons why I wanted to secure this debate was to try to get some form of agreement and to have a discussion about more than the nature of history. We can talk about “what” history or “whose” history—whether it is local or national history—and we need to talk about history in terms of the curriculum and examinations, but let us start from a baseline that we can never deny, namely “why” history. Historians have probably come at things from the wrong end, in that they are, as Isaiah Berlin would have put it, foxes rather than hedgehogs. We often focus on the minutiae, and so we start focusing on what should be in the curriculum and how we should frame it without coming to an agreement that we should have history to 16, as most other countries in the world do. That is where I want to get to, and then let us fill out things and colour in the blanks.