Northern Ireland Executive Formation

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and Richard Drax

Wednesday 31st January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question, but some of the points he made were actually incorrect. In the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, we said that there would be checks on goods going into the EU single market. I think that every piece of legislation we have proposed in this place has said that, but it will be UK folk operating the UK internal market scheme. Today, on the fourth anniversary of our leaving the European Union, I can tell him that the agreed package of measures will not change the freedoms and powers we have secured through Brexit or the Windsor framework. It will not reduce our ability to diverge, nor our commitment to do so, should it be in the interests of the United Kingdom.

The right hon. Gentleman refers to clause 13C in one of the statutory instruments. A whole swathe of things happen behind the scenes before a Bill is brought before this House. One of them, which the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) has complained to me about before, is something we call the parliamentary business and legislation committee, or PBL. We do a Star Chamber of Bills, and the Secretaries of State for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales attend to state whether there is any adverse effect of the legislation being mooted. What the right hon. Gentleman rightly asked for is transparency and the publication of a written ministerial statement when there is the possibility of a significant adverse effect on GB-NI trade. Publishing a written ministerial statement is not in any way what he says it is.

[Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)]

May I congratulate my right hon. Friend and the DUP? Clearly, this is still a highly emotive issue, and understandably so, because when we left the EU, I, the House and the country were promised that we would leave as a United Kingdom. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom but, as we have heard, it will still be subject to EU laws, so that axe is still grinding away and we must get rid of it. What is unhelpful is Sinn Féin’s whispering about unification at this highly emotive time. Can my right hon. Friend tell me, the House and this country that Northern Ireland will always be part of the United Kingdom? We are stronger together.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I have to tread slightly more carefully on that particular issue, because as Secretary of State I am responsible for making an independent assessment of the conditions that might lead to the border poll to which my hon. Friend alludes. I have to be very careful, but I am comfortable suggesting that, certainly in my lifetime, Northern Ireland will be a strong and wonderfully prosperous part of the United Kingdom. However, it is very important to outline the parts of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement that allow for all these things to happen, and any change would absolutely depend on the consent of both communities at the time. I certainly do not think anybody judges that to be in place at this point.

European Union (Approvals) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and Richard Drax

Monday 13th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I understand the statistics that the hon. Gentleman has just relayed. That just goes to prove that what the European Commission believes to be happening and what is happening are two completely different things. Indeed, the Commission is quite Orwellian in its interpretation of what goes on around it.

[Richard Drax]

Surely the evidence that it is not working is there for all to see. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) is an expert on such matters, as the Minister recognised, so why are the Government not listening to the experts and looking to act on the evidence?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Fortunately, that is one for the Minister to answer. There are plenty of experts on both sides of this very political argument and one point that I shall continue to make during my speech is that this is a very political matter that should therefore not be funded by taxpayers’ money.

It is interesting to see that the European Commission recognises some of the issues it faces. The preamble continues:

“In order to bring Europe closer to its citizens and to enable them to participate fully in the construction of an ever closer Union, a variety of actions and coordinated efforts through transnational and Union level activities are required.”

In other words, the solution to some of the issues we face today is not less Europe but, according to the European Commission, more Europe, and to ensure that people think that way the Commission will pay for a bunch of projects to try to tell them that that is the case.

Article 1 of the draft regulation states that the general objectives of the programme are

“to contribute to citizens’ understanding of the Union, its history and diversity”

and

“to foster European citizenship and to improve conditions for civic and democratic participation at Union level.”

I am pretty sure that that is a reference to the European elections, which is slightly concerning. That, together with the preamble, suggests that the programme is aimed at lauding the European Union as a political project with, as I will demonstrate, many a federalist overtone. That is reinforced by the fact that article 6 of the proposal states that the programme is open to

“stakeholders promoting European citizenship and integration”.

In other words, one can apply for money from the programme only if one believes in one side of the political argument.

I heard what the Minister said about the collaboration element of the project. Like everyone else in the House, I support any attempt realistically to encourage the commemoration and remembrance of important events in the history of Europe, volunteering, or participation in the democratic process, where there is genuine enthusiasm for it, but I am greatly concerned about trying to force one particular political viewpoint down peoples’ throats.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

My soon-to-be right hon. Friend’s organisation could benefit from funding, if it changed its basic principle on belief in the European project, but he is a very principled gentleman and would not do that, so no is the simple answer; there would be no access to EU funding for those groups.

I am supportive of trying to encourage the things I mentioned, but I do not believe that that is best achieved by a European Union spending programme that has its decision making centralised in the European Commission, and in which everything is tied to a supportive view of European Union political integration. The draft regulation’s preamble even asserts that there is a link between remembrance and European identity; I struggle to see that link.

The Government’s support for the regulation calls a number of points into question. It sits uneasily—does it not?—with the Prime Minister’s speech on Europe on 23 January last year, which made it clear that Britain has no desire for ever closer union with other EU countries in any political sense. The Prime Minister also said:

“There is not, in my view, a single European demos.

It is national parliaments”—

not EU institutions—

“which are, and…remain, the true source of real democratic legitimacy and accountability in the EU.”

The regulation, which we might be asked to vote for, would establish a political programme, which we would fund, with exactly the opposite ethos. How can that be?

Moreover, the regulation states that the programme would have a budget of €185.5 million, which, according to the Google currency converter last night, is about £156.5 million over the multi-annual financial framework period. The Government have estimated that the UK will meet about 11.5% of the cost of the multi-annual financial framework, after the rebate is applied. That means that the UK may end up paying roughly £18 million for the programme, over its course. The shadow Minister said that we expect to receive about £7 million back. That is not a bad return on European money—normally, we pay in a fiver and get £2 back—but the money comes back to us with caveats on how it should be spent, and who it should be spent on. I understand the Minister’s point about the general budget envelope, but there are better ways that we could spend the money; we could spend it on much more worthy projects in the UK, without the involvement of a middleman with sticky fingers in Brussels.

The House might be interested to know how much money was spent on the previous Europe for Citizens programme, which ran from 2007 to 2013. Most of this information comes from budget questions relating to 2013, because it is best to have the most up-to-date information, and from a compendium of summaries of reports submitted last year under strand 1 of the programme, produced by the European Commission agency responsible for selecting projects, the Education, Audiovisual and Culture Executive Agency. As I mentioned, I have followed this issue for quite some time.

Let us start with a nice, friendly organisation, the Transeuropa citizens festival, an annual festival that, in 2013, took place in October in various cities simultaneously. Page 4 of the Commission’s compendium says that it took place in nine cities, but the festival’s website claims that it took place in 13: London, Paris, Berlin, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Bologna, Prague, Bratislava, Belgrade, Warsaw, Lublin, Sofia, and Cluj-Napoca in Romania. The compendium’s summary says:

“Transeuropa Citizens Festival is an annual festival of citizenship happening across Europe. For the European Year of Citizens it will take place in 9 cities simultaneously in October 2013 and will celebrate free movement. The festival promotes active citizenship: it is made by and for citizens from throughout Europe (particularly central and eastern Europe). About 300 active citizens”—

I have no idea what they are—

“will meet and work together to make events which promote their vision of Europe to a wider public”,

so it is an interesting festival.

[Richard Drax]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech, and I am most grateful to him for giving way a second time. If this nightmare continues, can he foresee a time—say, in 10 or 20 years—when countries that do not participate in these awful affairs will be fined for not doing so?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

The few times in my political career when I have not relied exactly on facts, I have always stumbled and fallen over, so I will keep to what has happened and is happening, rather than having a guess at what might happen in future.

The 300 individuals, and the people they then talk to, will

“act as European Citizens of the future and peer-leaders. The festival will focus on the issues of precarity, poverty and solidarity in a Europe facing the financial crisis, as well as themes of common goods, media pluralism, migrants and Roma rights and the fundamental rights given by Europe.”

Obviously, to be involved in this scheme, one has to approve wholeheartedly of the application of the EU charter of fundamental rights by the European Court of Justice. Those interested in Roma migration should note that the festival was held in London, as well as many other European cities, to promote that sort of thing.

Last year, the festival was awarded €149,000 from the Europe for Citizens budget. It appears that the 2011 festival was awarded €150,000. In 2010, European Alternatives Ltd was awarded €40,000 for a project called “Transeuropa citizens”. In 2009, the same company was awarded €36,300 for a project called “active and transnational citizens in dialogue”. In 2008, the company was awarded €24,800 for a project called the “active and transnational citizenship programme”. I wonder what all these programmes did, or do; from the preamble, one can probably guess exactly what they did.

In addition, European Alternatives Ltd has been awarded grants to fund its existence, which the Commission said it would cut out; no longer could organisations bid for money simply to run themselves, so that they could bid for more European money to run projects for the Commission, so that they could bid for more money from the Commission, so that they could run more projects for the Commission. That was not the case here. In 2012, 2011 and 2010, it was awarded a €100,000 annual operating grant. In 2009, it did a bit worse: it got only €60,000. This one organisation was awarded, all in all, approximately €760,000 from one section of the Europe for Citizens programme budget over the period from 2007 to 2013. Bear that figure in mind when I come on to the sort of grants that have been issued to projects in the United Kingdom.

Let us look at another example of an organisation that has received money from the Europe for Citizens programme. The grants were intended to support the running of the organisation itself, so I am pretty sure that it would not exist were it not for this funding. It is the French think-tank called—perhaps Members will be able to work out why it has been awarded funding—Notre Europe, the Jacques Delors Institute. It was set up by Jacques Delors in 1996 after he stepped down as European Commission President. It aims to contribute to the debate on the future of Europe and to influence decision makers. We are paying for an organisation to try to influence decision makers in a highly political way on the future of Europe and other European integration matters.

Eurozone Financial Assistance

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and Richard Drax

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I honestly do not think so.

In the most basic terms, voting for the original motion will not mean that we are no longer liable to contribute to bail-outs via the EFSM. Worse than that—as I have said—because the Government signalled they were not likely to accept the original motion, it would in all likelihood have fallen, and therefore, far from this House having put its foot down, it would not have had a view at all. My amendment merely recognises that reality. It does not build up false hope that we can simply stop being involved in these matters, but it does send a message to Government that I hope will be reflected in the ongoing debates on them: that this House wants there to be a eurozone-only arrangement in the future.

Too regularly in this place and elsewhere, those of us who question various aspects of our relationship with the European Union march our supporters to the top of the hill only to find that we are outnumbered and outfoxed, and are then valiantly and gloriously defeated. We need to get real.

[Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)]

Perhaps we are led to the top of the hill and then let down by parliamentarians who do not have the guts to stand up for their country.