Sanctions

Chris Bryant Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[James Cleverly]

I am going to make some progress.

I assure the House that we will use this and other sanctions legislation that we might bring forward to deter further actions and to encourage Russia to de-escalate.

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[James Cleverly]

My hon. and gallant Friend makes a point I fully understand, and I can assure him the Government fully understand it too. The pace at which we ratchet up our sanctions response in conjunction with our international partners is very much to not just send a message, although sending a message is important, but to ensure the sanctions are meaningfully felt by the Russian leadership and those people around Vladimir Putin funding him and propping him up.

[Chris Bryant]

Will the Minister give way?

[James Cleverly]

I am going to make some progress. Trust me, I will give the hon. Gentleman an opportunity to intervene later.

We are providing political support to Ukraine. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is in close and regular contact with Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba and other friends and allies around the world, and I pay tribute to our ambassador, Melinda Simmons, and her team, who remain in Ukraine operating from the British embassy office in Lviv providing what support we can for British nationals still in the country.

Thirdly, we are leading on the strategic communications response to Russian actions. At every stage, working closely with our international partners, we have exposed President Putin’s plans, lies and false flags activities, and we have exposed them for what they are: a pretext for aggression and an attempt to justify what is in every respect unjustifiable. Last week I highlighted the falsehoods put forward by Vladimir Putin at the United Nations Security Council.

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[Chris Bryant]

Will the Minister give way now?

[James Cleverly]

I will.

[Chris Bryant]

I am very grateful. One of the problems with the Government’s argument is that President Putin has already said the whole of the Donbas is now effectively to be either independent or part of Russia. Two thirds of that territory is currently held by Ukrainians and a third by separatists. That is an incursion already. It feels as if what we have announced today by way of sanctions is remarkably puny, yet it feels also as if we are not going to do anything more if the Russians just stick with this. Does the Minister not understand the anxiety there is, I think across the House?

[James Cleverly]

I have a huge amount of respect for the hon. Gentleman, as he knows—we speak when the cameras are not rolling—but I fear he is putting his prejudice ahead of the statement I am making, because were he to listen to the points I am making and allow me to get to the point in the speech where I am explicit about this, he would understand that the UK Government’s actions are not limited to what the Prime Minister has currently announced. He will hear that we are going to bring forward further legislation to further extend the measures available to us and that we are absolutely not ignoring the fact that there has already been Russian incursion into Ukraine, which we want to halt and reverse and then get those troops away from the Ukrainian border.

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[James Cleverly]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his assistance. We are lucky that both officials in the Box and Hansard note takers in the Gallery have taken note of that individual. I remind the House that it is a long-standing convention that we do not discuss future targets of sanctions designation by name to prevent those sanctions potentially being less effective than they might otherwise be, but I can assure him and the House that that name has been noted.

[Chris Bryant]

Will the Minister give way?

[James Cleverly]

I will make progress.

In response to President Putin’s decision last night to recognise sovereign regions of Ukraine as what he claimed—but we do not agree—to be independent states and to order troops into those areas, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister today announced the initial set of sanctions that with immediate effect will freeze the assets of five Russian banks. Four of those banks are involved in bankrolling the Russian occupation. They include Bank Rossiya, which is particularly close to the Kremlin, the Black Sea bank for development and reconstruction, IS Bank and Genbank.

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[James Cleverly]

I have got to progress. I will be crucified otherwise.

In addition, over the forthcoming weeks, we will extend the territorial sanctions imposed in response to the Crimean incursion by Russia to territory occupied by Russian forces in what they claim to be the breakaway republics of Donetsk and Luhansk. No UK individual or business—no UK individual or business—will be able to deal with them until they are returned fully to Ukrainian control. We also intend to sanction the members of the Russian Duma and the Federation Council who voted for recognition of the independence of Donetsk and Luhansk, in flagrant violation of Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty.

[Chris Bryant]

I wholly support that if that is what the Government intend to do—

[James Cleverly]

Yes.

[Chris Bryant]

I know the Minister said that, but I am just trying to check whether he intends to do that under this proposed legislation. There is a legal argument that he cannot, not least because the statutory instrument lists what is considered to be a member of the Government of Russia and it does not include members of the Duma. However, in proposed new regulation 6(3)(a), I think the Minister is intending to include anyone who promotes a policy or action which destabilises Ukraine. It would just be helpful if he could explain that.

[James Cleverly]

The hon. Gentleman is right that there is a difference. Those in this House understand that there is a difference between a legislature and a Government. The sanctions regime under which those sanctions have been brought forward is an extension of the pre-existing sanctions regime we brought forward in response to the aggression going into Crimea, rather than this one.

We are also ready to introduce new legislation, putting in place new measures which will prevent the Russian state from issuing sovereign debt on the UK markets. They will curtail the ability of the Russian state and Russian companies to raise funds in UK markets and further isolate Russian banks—touching on the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake)—and their ability to operate not just in the UK, but internationally.

This will not end today.

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[Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)]

I am grateful to be called at this particular point, Madam Deputy Speaker. So that I do not end up repeating them, I first associate myself completely with the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat).

We can do, we should do and we must do more to root out the dirty money that flows through there. That is not to blame us—in some senses it goes through New York as well—but we should collectively ensure that we target those people. I am told that Putin has squirrelled away more than $250 billion around the world through his oligarchs; they are not actually wealthy individuals, but only nominally wealthy, because it is his money, which he has stolen from the Russian state. We should seek that out and nail it down, collectively, as nations in the free world.

I say to my right hon. Friend the Minister that I appreciate the difficulty the Government are in over this matter. The Government want to play their hand carefully, and I understand that; they want to deliver such that President Putin and co. have to pull back. The question, therefore, is not whether the Government are right to want to do that—we support them in wanting to do so—but whether the means that the Government have willed to themselves are enough.

I also speak as co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Magnitsky sanctions, with the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). We have already listed names, and I genuinely and carefully question why my Government had not done more to sanction people already, long before this final crisis erupted—people in Russia, China, the United States and around the world who are clearly identifiable as in need of being sanctioned under the Magnitsky rules that we passed. I am ready to give the Government a list, and I know he feels exactly the same. He probably has it there.

[Chris Bryant]

indicated assent.

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith]

I knew he would have it. We want to see that list actioned.

The trouble right now is that we have had the debate about President Putin and the Russians invading Ukraine as though they were about to invade Ukraine. I keep banging on about this: they have invaded Ukraine. They took over Crimea in 2014 and created this nonsense about separatists in the Donbas region, loads of whom we know to be Russian soldiers, dressed up in different uniforms and creating merry hell. There is no way on earth that they would have held the Ukrainian forces off for this long were it not for the fact that they have some very sophisticated support coming in from Russia. There is an idea that somehow the Russians are invading, but they are not—they have already invaded. Therefore, we have the right to do something about it.

The question therefore is what we do about it. In 2014 we let ourselves down: we did next to nothing. I was in Government at the time and I felt concern then, but the reality is that we did not do enough. The problem in dealing with dictators is that if we do not act early and act hard, the lesson they learn is that we will never act and we will always give way at the end. When will those lessons be learned? We have been through it time and again. Dictators have a single purpose. The problem with democracy is that we have many thoughts, many ideas and many people to bring with us, but we too should have a central purpose.

I have some questions for my right hon. Friend the Minister. Much as I really support what the Government have done, I cannot understand why we have not done much more immediately. Going now and going hard should be the way. If there are other things we are planning to do, there are many others we should be sanctioning—I mentioned one individual earlier in an intervention—and many other levers we could pull.

I do not understand—but perhaps my right hon. Friend can explain to me—why we have not driven forward on the SWIFT banking system or the trading of sovereign debt, which would affect the Russians very much. I agree that the Germans have moved swiftly, as we know, to suspend Nord Stream 2—I would like to see them end the whole idea of it—but if they are going to do more, we should be co-operating with them and going in hard ourselves this one time.

Will my right hon. Friend therefore keep this statutory instrument open so that we could even return to it tomorrow, if necessary, to add to the whole process and take it even further? We have to do more and we have to do it harder than we have done now, because President Putin will not take any lessons.

I come back to the question I asked earlier. Bearing in mind that the Russians still sit in Crimea and still have areas of Donbas, which in a way they were unofficially occupying but now have occupied, what I do not quite understand is what this first phase of sanctions is actually meant to do. I am utterly puzzled by it. Is it meant to say, “Thus far and no further”? My right hon. Friend said that it is meant to say, “Get back.” But if so, then we have to hit very hard with everything we have got, such that President Putin and his cohorts around him suddenly say to themselves, “They really mean business. They are united across the democracies.”

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[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I associate myself with everything that the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) has just said; I completely agree with him. Democracy is a very tender flower. We thought it was very robust and it would survive all weathers, but the truth is that it needs watering, care and tenderness. All too often, it is very easy for authoritarian regimes to trample on it and kill it.

I associate myself, too, with the comments of the hon. Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith). We have no beef with the people of Russia. The people of Russia are fine people with not only a strong culture and history, but many strong democratic traditions and understandings of what it is to be a human being and to work in solidarity with others. Our beef is with the regime; it is with Putin.

I agree that we have been recklessly naive for far too long in relation to our relationship with Vladimir Putin. It pains me—I understand why Tony Blair was doing it—that we gave him a state visit so early in his time. We wanted to press the reset button, as did Obama, and it gained us absolutely nothing; it just showed us to be weak. We have been pitiful. We have been puny. We have vacillated. We have been spineless. Quite often we have looked craven because we just want Russian money to prop up our banks, pay our lawyers and keep our consultancy firms going.

Maybe we could forgive the fact that Putin is a thieving kleptocrat—after all, most off the theft is done against his own people. It leaves his own people poorer than they were when he came to power, though. It is maybe just a matter for the Russian people that he has enriched himself beyond the wildest dreams of Imelda Marcos and Muammar al-Gaddafi put together. But three things make him truly dangerous: his territorial ambitions, his excessive use of force, and his lies and misinformation.

Just look at Beslan, where 334 hostages were killed in the end by Russian state actors, including 176 children. Just look at the Moscow theatre siege, where 130 hostages were killed by Russian state actors. Look at Chechnya—I could go on for ages—and look at Georgia. They compare the situation in Donetsk and Luhansk with the situation in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Of course, it is exactly the same playbook: “Set up a pretext and then move in.” Look at the downing of Flight MH17. Look at the murders of Boris Nemtsov, Sasha Litvinenko, Dawn Burgess, Anna Politkovskaya, Sergei Magnitsky and so many others.

Yes, I am angered by the naivete that I sometimes see in this country. I have seen it often in this Chamber, and I have seen it also from the left. Stop the War said:

“We oppose the deployment of British forces to the borders of Russia as a pointless provocation.”

What utterly stupid naivete. Where on earth is the condemnation of the 190,000 Russian troops on the border, the annexation of Crimea, or the snipers shooting at Ukrainian forces now? This is not just naivete; it is monumental and dangerous stupidity, and we should call it out.

I confess that I was absolutely sickened by Putin’s speech last night. The Minister cannot say it, but I can: the man is deranged, unhinged and a danger to his own people, as well as to the people of Ukraine. I said in this House in March 2014:

“A Russian friend of mine says that Putin is not yet mad. That may be true, but what will our surrendering and our appeasement do for his sanity?”—[Official Report, 18 March 2014; Vol. 577, c. 679.]

We can now see what his madness has done. I am reluctant to use the word “appeasement” too often, but sometimes what has been done has felt like appeasement.

Putin’s argument about Russians and Ukrainians being one people—again, I understand that the Minister cannot say this, but I can—is the same as Hitler’s about the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia in 1938. Hitler said then that he only wanted to protect the Sudeten Germans. It was a lie. Some people said so in this Chamber in 1938. Some of them laid down their life in the ensuing slaughter, and they have their shields up here. However, Chamberlain bought the lie, and the following spring Hitler took the rest of Czechoslovakia without so much as a by-your-leave. Be in no doubt: this is not a Russian peacekeeping mission; it is an annexation, an invasion and a declaration of war. Putin knows that it will lead to significant bloodshed on a massive scale because the Ukrainians are more determined to fight now than they ever have been. If anything, Putin’s behaviour over these years has reinforced the Ukrainians’ sense of solidarity.

Putin is not just interested in the parts of Luhansk and Donetsk already in separatists’ hands; of course he is not. He wants Avdiivka, which is metres across the demarcation line, where the Foreign Affairs Committee saw Russian snipers pointing at Ukrainian troops just three weeks ago. He wants Kramatorsk, where we met community leaders, including the local priest. He wants Mariupol, and of course he wants Kyiv, Lviv, Kharkiv, Odessa—the whole of Ukraine. He wants to reshape the contours of Europe by force because he thinks that that is to be his legacy.

Of course, I support the statutory instrument and I am glad we are doing this, but today’s sanctions—the ones that have been announced today, which rely on this instrument—are wholly inadequate. I think that is the message from the whole House, and I hope the Government are hearing it loud and clear. They do not match the rhetoric of what the Government are saying, and when actions do not match rhetoric, we undermine that rhetoric and put ourselves in a worse position, not in a better one.

The banks are the small change of the Russian economy, they really are: they are shrapnel down the back of the sofa. The individuals have already been sanctioned for four years by the Americans. This really is netting in the minnows while letting the basking sharks swim freely. As somebody else said, it is taking a peashooter to a gunfight. Putin, frankly, will beat this feather duster away. He will just laugh at us. In effect, Medvedev was laughing at us yesterday, even before we announced anything, because he said that the Russians will be able to wear whatever we throw at them. It is a beautiful irony, is it not, that one of the people who will be sanctioned, when the Government are able to bring their measure in relation to Members of the Duma, is Andrey Lugavoy, who was one of the murderers of Alexander Litvinenko? Incidentally, can I just say that, if anybody has not met Marina Litvinenko, she is one of the most wonderful people who have ever walked the face of this earth?

I think a sanctions regime in this context has to go hand in hand with, first, a proper public register of beneficial ownership of property. I do not understand from the Prime Minister whether it is his intention now to introduce that, because it keeps on being conflated with various other forms. I hope that is the plan, but it has been promised for a long time, so some of us are beginning to get a little bit cynical.

Secondly, there has to be complete reform of Companies House, so that it actually has some powers to interrogate the information given to it. As the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee has said, at the moment anybody could say that they are Tom Tugendhat, or Mickey Mouse—or Vladimir Putin, no doubt—with impunity.

Thirdly, there has to be real openness about the review of the tier 1 visa scheme. The Home Secretary has cited “security concerns” about

“corrupt elites who threaten our national security and push dirty money around our cities.”

That is about people who already have tier 1 visas. As I understand it, this review is complete—it was completed some time ago—and it must be published soon. We need to understand what these tier 1 visas did, and where the vulnerabilities are in the British economy. I really hope that the Home Secretary will come to the House to do that very soon.

We need a foreign agents Act, as has been mentioned, and of course we need to reform the Official Secrets Act. We have no means of tackling spies in this country. It is almost impossible to send somebody to prison for spying in this country for the Russian Government.

[Tom Tugendhat]

Do we not need an update of the Treason Act? A treason charge can be laid only in relation to the person of the monarch, and this Act from 1351 really does need updating.

[Chris Bryant]

I agree, and on all these promises of legislation, which I think it is being suggested will come in the next Session of Parliament, frankly, we need to get a bit of a bloody—sorry, we need to get a bit of a move on, because all of this should have been in place years ago. Our report came out in 2018, the Intelligence and Security Committee report came out in 2019, and we still have not done any of this. I say to the Minister that we all stand ready to help in that process. We do feel a bit as though we are dragging him to be chased, so do not run away from us, but be chased and help us to bring in the legislation that will put us in a better place.

My final point is that I do not understand the Government’s ratchet decision at the moment. It is a complete mystery to me. There has already been an invasion and incursion, and we said prior to the incursion that we would hit Russia hard with sanctions. That is not what is on offer today. When the Prime Minister resigned as Foreign Secretary, he said that his greatest failure—his biggest mistake as Foreign Secretary—was his relationship with Russia. I think he has a long way to go to rescue what has happened today. We want tougher action and we beg the Government to introduce it.