High Speed Rail (Scotland)

Cheryl Gillan Excerpts

Tuesday 6th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I shall go into that in a little more depth later. It does reveal the issue that we might be faced with. The importance of the scheme, particularly the northern part, to Scotland is probably greater, at this stage at least, than it might seem to be to what we are tending to refer to as the rest of the UK at that point. I certainly hope that the situation alluded to is not one in which we find ourselves.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on obtaining the debate. Does she agree that it is very important to connect Scotland and England and that it would perhaps be advisable for the Government to consider starting with high-speed rail from Scotland to the north of England, and then finally down to London when the airport policy is decided, not least because that would send a signal to people in Scotland, who will be facing the referendum, that we want them in the United Kingdom?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank the right hon. Lady for her intervention. It would certainly be an interesting prospect if we were to be placed at the forefront of this. I agree that the connection with the debate about air travel and airports is also important. We should have a very clear, unified transport policy, not only for transport reasons but for environmental reasons, yet at times it feels as though there is a disconnect there. When it comes to people’s travel from Scotland, I am sure that if we did achieve high-speed rail in the near, not the very distant, future, we would see a huge transfer of both business and leisure travel to rail. That would be highly beneficial.

If there is to be a study, I have some questions for the Minister. Who is carrying out the study that we were told is to take place? Is it HS2 Ltd, the Department, or another external organisation? When are we likely to get a report with the information? That is important, especially in terms of timing, because it will determine whether the additional sections of line to Edinburgh and Glasgow could be incorporated in phase 2 of the project. Phase 2 is the part that involves the building of the Y network from Birmingham to Leeds and to Manchester. Broadening the scope of phase 2 would be critical in ensuring that the benefits of High Speed 2 are realised sooner rather than later. The alternative is that what I have described becomes phase 3, which would be very disappointing.

The estimated completion date of phase 1 is 2026. For the existing phase 2, it is 2033-34. If building to Scotland were to be a completely separate phase, on that sort of time scale we would not see the network reach Scotland until well into the 2040s. From our perspective, and in terms of growing the Scottish economy, that would be extremely disappointing.

We know that the Secretary of State intends to publish plans for the route between Birmingham and Manchester and Leeds by the end of this year. A recent written answer revealed that the Minister wants to bring forward consultation on phase 2 from 2014 to 2013. I warmly welcome all that, but I argue that the plans to build to Scotland should be published and consulted on, so that, at the very least, that section of the route can be included in the hybrid Bill for phase 2. I acknowledge that planning is likely to be at a fairly early stage, but there some key issues about the route to Scotland on which I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some reply, or at least an undertaking that he and his Department will examine that.

One issue is whether building to Scotland would involve two separate lines—one from Manchester to Glasgow on the west coast and one from Leeds to Edinburgh—or one line, probably from Manchester, that would split into a further Y in southern Scotland and link to both Edinburgh and Glasgow. That is already in place for certain rail journeys, and has been for a long time, as anyone who travels north or south on the sleeper will know. That mechanism enables Edinburgh and Glasgow to link to not only London on conventional-speed rail, but many other parts of the country, and it is a big boon for many people who travel that way.

Will the stations in the existing phase 2 be through-stations or terminuses, as planned for Birmingham? I would argue that through-stations are vastly preferable, because each service to and from Scotland could call at stations on the line, which increases connectivity and reduces the need for additional point-to-point services or people having to change to complete their journey.

At this stage, it is important to acknowledge that regardless of when the high-speed network is extended to Edinburgh and Glasgow, passengers in Scotland will benefit as soon as the first phase of the project is complete. Sometimes, the impression is given that high-speed rail is irrelevant to us at that stage, but if the line from London to Birmingham is connected to existing lines, it will allow trains to continue beyond Birmingham at conventional speeds, which could cut journey times from Scotland to London by half an hour. I hope that Scotland will be part of phase 2, but even without that or a phase 3, journey times could be down to three and half hours. Such reductions in journey times are critical when we are looking at the best methods of travel. To return to the environmental issue, it is the kind of difference that will make people realise that rail is by far the better way to travel. It will also fit in with our business needs, because travel will still be from city centre to city centre.

Will the Minister confirm that, from the completion of phase 1, through-running trains will go to both Glasgow and Edinburgh? HS2 will be linked to the west coast main line at Lichfield, and traditionally trains on that line serve only Glasgow, not Edinburgh. We are aware that there are capacity constraints on the west coast main line, but it would be frustrating if Edinburgh had to wait for the completion of phase 2 to benefit from through-running trains. We are not only talking about Edinburgh, but the entire east coast; people coming from further north would also be able to make use of such a connection.

I promised my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes that I would say a little about the circumstances that would arise should the referendum result in independence. The HS2 project, probably more than any other, encapsulates why we are better together. The Union means that Ministers in Westminster have a responsibility to look out for the interests of people in Scotland alongside those of people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is demonstrated by the decision to facilitate through-running to Scotland from the completion of phase 1 and by the Secretary of State’s stated ambition to drive down journey times further in future. Should Scotland separate from the rest of the UK, it is possible that a benevolent Government in Westminster might retain those commitments, but that is not guaranteed. If Ministers decided that they would not fulfil those commitments, there would be no formal means of redress though, for example, voting against governing parties at the next general election. There would not even be forums such as Westminster Hall where Members representing Scotland could directly raise and debate the issues.

On a purely practical level, I cannot envision the Government of a separate Scotland persuading Ministers in the UK to pay for the hundreds of miles of expensive, high-speed track necessary to link Leeds and Manchester to the Scottish border. I believe that that is the point my hon. Friend wanted to make. UK Ministers would probably expect a Scottish Government to pay for that in addition to what would be required in Scotland—a huge additional expense.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) on securing the debate and on her sensible approach to it. To pick up on her last point, we have always believed that the aspiration that we should pursue is for a truly national rail network. Our policy is to maintain the United Kingdom as it is. We are confident of winning the referendum, and we are not planning for independence. I personally think that the Scottish people will conclude, for the reasons that the hon. Lady set out, that independence will be yet another gamble as far as high-speed rail is concerned.

Behind all the headline statistics, HS2 is about believing in something better than we have. The coalition Government passionately believes that the public deserve more than just making do with what they have. In the same way that we are not prepared to put up with a fiscal deficit, neither should we put up with an infrastructure deficit. For too long, successive Governments have failed to grasp the nettle on the decisions necessary to achieve our long-term aspirations.

Growing demand for inter-city rail travel is putting increasing pressure on existing infrastructure. Without planning for additional capacity, passengers face the prospect of more crowded and more unreliable services. To be clear, the primary, though not the only, justification for HS2 is a clear need for extra capacity north to south.

Our plans for a high-speed rail network from London to the west midlands and on to Leeds and Manchester will be the backbone of a new transport system for the 21st century. A new national high-speed rail network will deliver massive benefits in terms of rail capacity, connectivity and reliability that will help to underpin prosperity across the UK and leave a lasting legacy for generations to come. HS2 will benefit every type of traveller on not only the new network, but existing lines. It will free up more space and capacity, which will drive competition on the railway, so changing how rail travel can be marketed and sold.

The Government is serious about making the long-term decisions that the country needs to connect our communities better, support the economy and make Britain the best place in the world to do business.

[Mrs Gillan]

My hon. Friend is reading out the public relations blurb on HS2 very expertly. Does he agree that, given that the north of England and parts of Scotland are far poorer than the rich and often overheated south-east, if one of the Government’s aims is to increase the country’s prosperity, it would have been common sense to have started the project in the north or even in Scotland, as I suggested to the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore)? What consideration did the Department give that idea before embarking on phase 1?

[Norman Baker]

I personally believe that we are starting at the sensible place, not least because it enables the connection with HS1 to be facilitated, which would not otherwise be the case. Of course if the Scottish Government wants to start building southwards from Edinburgh and Glasgow, there is nothing to stop it from so doing. On the question about what consideration the Department gave, I will have to ask the Minister of State for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), to write to my right hon. Friend with an answer.

The Department for Transport ministerial team is very much engaged in the question of HS2 as it affects and, indeed, benefits Scotland. I visited Glasgow to discuss the matter in March 2011. The former Secretary of State for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening), went there in March this year, and the current Secretary of State intends to visit later this month. There is no question but that Scotland will benefit from the Y network and even from the existing plans that have been announced.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh East referred to the reduction in journey times from Birmingham in phase 1 and the subsequent journey time reductions when the Y network to Leeds and Manchester is completed. We have already begun work with partners north of the border to ensure that Scotland gets the most from High Speed 2, and we should not underestimate—I know that the hon. Lady does not do that—the extent of the benefits from the Y network when it is completed.

The network is expected to deliver up to £50 billion of business benefits alone, and that will be felt very much in Scotland and the north of England as well as the south. Completion of the Y network to Leeds and Manchester will spread the benefits of high-speed rail across the country, so increasing capacity and enhancing connectivity all the way to Scotland by relieving pressure on the most congested southern end of the line. Seamless transition of trains on to the east coast and west coast main lines will deliver faster journeys to destinations the length of Britain, including to Edinburgh and Glasgow, without the need to change trains.

Cutting journey times is important for the competitiveness of not just Scotland but the whole UK. We want to see the benefits delivered as soon as possible, which is why we are exploring options for bringing forward formal public consultation on phase 2 of the Y network to 2013.

The claim by some opponents of HS2 that better and faster transport links between north and south will pull economic activity into London and away from the UK’s other great cities is defeatist and misguided. Isolation is not the way to ensure that Scotland thrives. Indeed, the campaign for HS2, which has been particularly strong in Scotland and the north, suggests that people in those areas share that view. I have every confidence that bringing Edinburgh and Glasgow closer to London and the cities of the midlands and the north of England will boost growth across our major conurbations. That confidence is based on the evidence from our European neighbours, which began their high-speed rail journey a generation before we had even started arguing about our first 67 mile stretch of high-speed track from the channel tunnel.

Faster journeys will produce more extensive modal shift between rail and air, as the train becomes the mode of choice for more travellers. High-speed rail is already greener than flying, and the gap between the two modes will widen as we make progress in decarbonising the sources of our electricity.

A crucial point to underline is that we are pursuing HS2 not just because of the positive benefits that it will generate but because of the pressing need to head off big problems that are heading down the track towards us, which will affect Scotland as well as the rest of Britain. We welcome the enthusiasm and support for high-speed rail north of the border.