Zero Total Allowable Catch: Pollack

Cherilyn Mackrory Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Steve Double]

The case that I am making is on a very specific issue: the impact on a specific part of our fishing industry of the removal of the pollack quota at such short notice. We all want a thriving fishing sector right across the United Kingdom. We want fishermen and businesses that support the sector to thrive and be profitable right across the UK. We need policies that enable that to happen, but what we face in Cornwall and other parts of the south-west is very specific. It relates to the short timeframe in which vessels and fishermen must adapt, because the quota went from 1,500 tonnes to zero virtually overnight.

[Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

I congratulate my constituency neighbour on securing tonight’s much-needed Adjournment debate. One fisherman said to me that it is as though his right leg has been amputated, and he must now get through the rest of the year on crutches, until we can find a way through this situation. Does my hon. Friend agree that all the options that we have been offered so far mean only a displacement to different species and ways of catching fish, and will therefore not be of any help to the long-term prospects of the fishing industry in Cornwall?

[Steve Double]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend and neighbour for making the very next point that I was going to come to. One of the suggestions that has been made to the fishermen who have been affected by the decision is that they can switch to targeting other species. That is simple to say, but not that simple to do, partly because of the lack of time. There was no lead-up to the decision; there was literally two weeks’ notice. To switch to catching other species, fishermen need different equipment, and for much of it, there is a lead time of several months before it can be delivered. As my hon. Friend says, switching to a different species simply displaces the catch of other vessels. The vessels that work hard targeting that other species will then have to reduce their catch, and perhaps look for something else, which will also have a knock-on effect. While I appreciate the sentiment that these fishermen need to catch something else, it really is not that simple. Certainly, it is unrealistic to expect that to happen when they have had such a short timeframe in which to adjust.

There are real concerns and questions about the data on which the decision was made. It is accepted that pollack stocks were diminishing, and quotas were being reduced for some time, but what shocked the industry was the decision to go suddenly from 1,500 tonnes to zero at once, when previously quotas have dropped by a few hundred tonnes a year. As we understand it, the data has largely been gathered from the catch of trawlers, but it is well understood that the main place where pollack can be found and caught is on reefs and wrecks, where trawlers cannot fish. There are real questions about the accuracy of the data that has been used to make the recommendation, and whether it is based on the reality of the stock of pollack that is available.

The fishermen I have spoken to are incredibly frustrated—some are even angry—because for several years they have been saying to the Marine Management Organisation, “We are concerned about pollack stocks, and therefore we would like an increase in the minimum catch size, an increase in the mesh size for the nets or a closed season for one or two months a year to protect the stock so we don’t have to take this drastic action”—

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[Mark Spencer]

We do of course continue to monitor fish stocks, and we do follow ICES advice. It is a fair criticism that we have seen a decline in pollack over many years—over the last 20 years—but certainly the ICES advice continued to recognise that pollack could be caught until last June, when we were forced into the position where we had to take action. I am truly sorry for the impact that is having on the fishermen who have relied on that stock. We want to follow that advice to the best of our ability to try to recover that stock. I want fishermen to be able to catch pollack in those waters, so we do need to manage it in the most responsible way possible.

[Cherilyn Mackrory]

I genuinely thank the Minister for his continued engagement on this, which really is very much appreciated. He may like to know that, following his announcement a couple of weeks ago on the schemes he was presenting, I wrote to the Chancellor to ask him for a bit more in the budget—not in the Budget we have just had, but in the budget—to help the Minister with a scheme he might have. We really do need some financial support for these guys now. It really is critical.

[Mark Spencer]

Once again, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her tenacious pursuit of support for her constituents.

I will turn to the long-term outlook for pollack, which is important. We will work with the EU on the longer-term management of pollack, via the specialised committee on fisheries, to drive towards an improved stock assessment on which ICES can base future advice. I want to see a recovery of this important pollack fishery, and I believe the measures described will help support that sector through a very challenging time.

My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay mentioned recreational fishing, which I know has caused some frustration, with social media posts almost taunting the commercial fishermen. There is an active recreational pollack fishery, and although the evidence base is limited, the recreational catch is likely to represent a large component of the total pollack catch. Clearly, given the zero catch advice, there is a need to explore the potential to reduce pressure on the stock through management of the recreational fishery. As this is a jointly managed stock with the EU, the UK has committed to take forward work on this issue with the specialised committee on fisheries as a matter of urgency in 2024. We will work closely with relevant stakeholders throughout this process. My officials have started discussions with the recreational sector, and we are looking to take this work forward as soon as we can.

In closing, I again thank my hon. Friend for raising this important topic. Pollack is a key stock, and it is crucial to the south-west community. The Government will do all we can to support the industry, to improve the stock science and to drive the stock towards long-term sustainable management, which is of course in the interests of everyone, particularly the committed fishers of the south-west of England. I should make it clear to my hon. Friend that this is not the end of the discussions I seek to have with colleagues. My door is very much open to further discussions to see how we may be able to assist, and I look forward to working with him to support his constituents, as he seeks to do.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Cherilyn Mackrory Excerpts

Thursday 19th October 2023 Commons Chamber

[Rebecca Pow]

The Ofwat report on sewage discharges, published in September, was extremely disappointing. I have written to all the water companies that were highlighted as lagging, and I have written to all the CEOs to say that I want to meet them in person. I have also written to the CEO and chair of Ofwat to ask how they will hold these water companies to account.

[Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

This Government introduced monitoring, so we now know the state of the problem. The water companies are now engaging and Ofwat has powers to put financial pressure on them. Given that only 4% of sewage overflows in Scotland are monitored, does this not show that we are progressing it in the right way and that the nationalisation of water companies is not the way to go?

[Rebecca Pow]

I agree with my hon. Friend.

Combined Sewer Overflows

Cherilyn Mackrory Excerpts

Wednesday 13th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dr Coffey]

I am conscious of the breakdown near Fleetwood earlier this year. To give some credit to United Utilities, it worked at pace to try to fix the mechanical failure that had happened. We now have legislation that allows the Environment Agency to apply unlimited penalties. She will be aware that a live criminal investigation by the Environment Agency is under way against water companies. It will then be for the courts to decide the scale of the fines. We will continue to ensure that penalties are applied and clearer instructions are given. We have had discussions with the Environment Agency. We need to get the problem fixed, but water companies should not try to do this on the cheap, and think that it is cheaper just to pay a penalty than actually sort out the problem.

[Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

I sat on the Bill Committee for the Environment Act 2021, which created the OEP. I also sit on the Environmental Audit Committee, which interviewed the now chair of the OEP. It was Government Members who introduced the OEP, enabling her to do this work to find out the scale of the problem. When the report refers to the Government, it is not being party political; it is referring to all Governments for the past 20 years or more. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we need to keep looking at these reports, ripping off the plaster that we have started to rip off, and holding to the fire the feet of all the polluters that caused these problems in the first place?

[Dr Coffey]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When we left the European Union, we recognised the need to have suitable scrutiny, which is what is in place. Clearly the OEP has not come to a conclusion about breaking the law. That is why it has asked for more information. That is its right and entitlement. That is what we legislated to allow it to do, and we will continue to comply with that. Meanwhile, it will not distract us from getting on with our plan for water and holding water companies to account.

Water Quality: Sewage Discharge

Cherilyn Mackrory Excerpts

Tuesday 25th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Jim McMahon]

I have already given way once. Let me make some progress.

Last week, Labour published analysis of Environment Agency and Top of the Poops data which showed that in 2022, Tory Ministers—this is the Cabinet, the highest seat in government—allowed 7,500 days’ worth of raw human sewage to be dumped in their constituencies. The data showed that there is a sewage dump taking place every 22 minutes in their own backyard. That Tory Cabinet Ministers are willing to allow that to happen to their own constituents really speaks volumes. In Suffolk Coastal, a constituency that may be familiar to the Environment Secretary, there were 426 sewage dumps last year. In the Chancellor’s constituency, there were 242. In the Prime Minister’s Richmond, Yorks constituency—proof that this goes all the way to the top—there were 3,500 sewage dumps.

[Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Will he acknowledge that the only reason he is able to reel off those statistics is because the Conservative Government have ensured that we now have 91% monitoring, soon to be 100%, across the country? Will he also acknowledge that that has only happened under a Conservative Government and that the last Labour Government did absolutely nothing?

[Jim McMahon]

I am not one to offer advice to those on the Government Benches, but I will just say this to eager Back Benchers bobbing for their Whips: they might want to check their constituency’s data before getting up to defend the Government’s record. [Interruption.]

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[Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

Most colleagues on the Government Benches, myself included, have had a fair bit of what I like to call online sewage since the landmark Environment Act 2021 was passed, not least since the Duke of Wellington’s amendment was discussed in this House. I must say that Opposition parties like to talk the talk, but they are not walking the walk, as this Government are doing.

I served on the Bill Committee for the 2021 Act, and I was proud to do so, because it was a landmark piece of legislation and the first time any Government were tackling the problem. The Opposition Members on that Bill Committee did not say anything like the things they like to say in the Chamber. They were constructive and we all came together as a good Bill Committee should to try to make the best possible piece of legislation, which we did.

Speaking as someone who likes to swim in the sea and has done so since I was a kid, I know that anyone else who grew up near the sea will remember—if they are truthful—that they will have swum past, I am sorry to say, tampons, sanitary towels and actual faeces in the water. It was not just in Cornwall; I grew up in the north-east, off Scarborough, and it was happening there as well.

Some of the surfers in Cornwall joke that in the 1970s they would go to the toilet at the top of their village and watch it come out through the sewerage when they got down to the bottom—and that is not a lie; it actually happened. To say that this is a Tory sewage crisis is absolutely ridiculous. This is a Tory sewage solution. We are finally grasping this problem and getting to the nub of it.

Last October in St Agnes, there was a big run-off that was videoed and made national headlines. It looked awful. We learned that it was run-off; we have to believe that, because that is what South West Water and the Environment Agency say, but my constituents are convinced it was more than that, because of the smell that they smelled. I ask the Secretary of State: can we have better and faster testing for those overflows when we are not sure what is happening? If we knew what was in the water, we could have a more positive campaign by local authorities and water companies to say, “This water is now safe to swim in and you will not get ill from it.” I hope the work we are doing now will lead to that.

South West Water is doing a lot of work around the Fal, including at the Falmouth sewage treatment works, Old Hill, 24 North Parade and Prince of Wales Pier. Some £13.2 million will be spent by 2025 and £40 million by 2030. South West Water is a one-star company that needs to get back to being a four-star company; it is starting to do the work, but there is much more to do. If I may make one final plea to the Secretary of State, when the consultation has finished, can we ensure that the fines imposed on water companies go back into fixing these problems? That will help us along the way.

Water Company Performance

Cherilyn Mackrory Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Rebecca Pow]

The issue of leaks is important. We are tackling it and water companies have targets to cut leaks. In the 2019 price review, they had to cut leakage by 16% and reduce bursts by 12%. If they are not seen to be reaching their targets, Ofwat imposes penalties on them. Three companies are currently paying back £150 million because of leaks and supply cuts. So there is already a system in place and it needs to be adhered to. Water is a precious resource and we need all the water we can get, which is why it is so important to tackle leakage and not just tackle environmental performance in terms of bonuses. I agree with the hon. Lady that bonuses should be linked to environmental performance, and that is what we have directed Ofwat to do.

[Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

As the Minister will know, Cornwall is often at the coalface of the fight against sewage. When we had a leak in St Agnes a few months ago, one issue we found was that the investigation did not take place immediately and there was some ambiguity as to whether it was sewage or run-off. Can the Minister explain to the House what we are doing to ensure that when there is a problem we get the data as quickly as possible so that there is no further ambiguity?

[Rebecca Pow]

I thank my hon. Friend for that important point. I think the incident she refers to turned out to be one of not sewage but soil. That is another issue we face and we now have targets to reduce soil sediment run-off. We do not want all that soil in our water; we need soil on the land because it is so precious. She is absolutely right about having the right data. Now, because of the increased monitoring that the Government have set under way, every storm sewage overflow will be monitored by the end of this year. It is a phenomenal project that has happened at great speed, ramping up over the last few years. It will provide us with the clear data we need, as well as monitoring upstream and downstream. Real-time monitoring will come into play. That is what we really need, so we can go on to a website, look at our home area and say, “That storm sewage overflow should not be emitting. It is not heavy rain. We have not had a massive downfall. It should not be emitting.” We will be able to go on there and truly hold the water companies to account.

Sewage Discharges

Cherilyn Mackrory Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2022 Westminster Hall

[Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) for securing this debate; it is clearly much needed. I thank the 278 of my constituents who signed the petition and helped to bring this debate here today.

Last Saturday morning, hundreds of residents gathered at Gyllyngvase beach in Falmouth to attend an anti-sewage pollution protest. In Falmouth, we have had enough. This is affecting people’s lives and businesses, and it is not just in Falmouth; it is happening all over my constituency. In Cornwall, we do not just look at the waterways—we use them for recreation, we use them to fish for a living, we use them for exercise, and we swim in them. I have one of the world’s most sustainable fisheries on the River Fal, and we have a duty of care to protect that fishery and give it the best chance of life.

One of the most shocking figures I saw was that one storm overflow spilled 355 times, for almost 7,500 hours in our River Fal. Some simple maths shows that that particular outlet was discharging sewage for the equivalent of 312 days. Just imagine for a moment that sewage was being discharged all day and all night for 312 days in a calendar year. That did not literally happen, but it kind of did.

I recently met South West Water on site in Portloe, a beautiful, picturesque fishing village, to talk about the raw sewage overflow there. When the system overflows, as it often does in the summer, it squirts sewage up into the air and on to the foreshore, which is horrendous. It should not take the intervention of the local MP before something is done about that. Something has to change.

I have had the great privilege of sitting on the Environmental Audit Committee, chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne), and we have done some great work on this. I pay tribute to the work he has led—I have only been a small part of it. I work locally with people and stakeholders to do what we can to clear up the River Fal, in particular, and it is not just about the storm overflows; all sorts of other things go into the river. After two and a half years as an MP and much longer campaigning on this issue, I believe we really must do better. I have run out of time, so I will sit down.

[Julie Elliott (in the Chair)]

We have managed that on time. I call the SNP spokesperson, Alan Brown.

Sewage Pollution

Cherilyn Mackrory Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2022 Commons Chamber

[George Eustice]

As I said earlier, the issue that the hon. Gentleman raises has been addressed through the Environment Act 2021. We have taken new powers to give Ofwat the ability to link dividend payments to environmental performance, and we are addressing the challenge of storm overflows through the plan we set out yesterday.

[Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

I commend the Secretary of State—a fellow Cornish MP—for being the first Secretary of State so far to grasp this nettle and take robust action. As those on the Front Bench will understand, this is a serious problem in Cornwall, especially on the River Fowey, affecting our shell fishermen. It is also something that I raised more than two and a half years ago. Does he agree that enough is enough and that, if water companies are found not to be complying with their obligations, they should face unlimited fines, which I would like to see ringfenced so that we can invest back into the system to fix the problems, and even criminal penalties? If he does agree, will he set out how these will be implemented?

[George Eustice]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. As I have said, we are bringing a record number of investigations and prosecutions against water companies for potential breaches of their permit conditions. In addition, in the River Fowey, there is also a challenge around agricultural diffuse pollution, which contributes to the issue for the mussel and oyster fishery in that particular part of the world. That is something that we are addressing through our new targets in the Environment Act 2021.

Cost of Living: Support for Farmers

Cherilyn Mackrory Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2022 Westminster Hall

[Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) on securing this hugely important debate, which is fundamentally important to the people of Cornwall. I speak as the Member for Truro and Falmouth, an area with a long history of farming and with 82% of its land used for agriculture.

Farming is a vital industry in Cornwall and has helped to shape the landscape that we see today. Almost every type of farming practised across the UK can be found in our Duchy. Our food industry is worth about £2 billion, and one in three jobs in the county—equating to about 60,000 people, and growing—has some attachment to the Cornish food and drink production industry. We have hundreds of fantastic farmers from all backgrounds who are passionate about growing an abundant supply of food, produced to world-leading standards and sustainability. We must enable those farmers to produce food efficiently if they are to continue to play their essential role in the south-west’s rural economy and deliver environmental benefits.

I recently met the National Farmers Union and farmers at Sixty Acres farm in Truro. That was a really positive meeting at which farmers raised many of the issues that we have heard about today. They also voiced their appreciation for what the Government have done to help support them so far.

A couple of weeks ago, I visited Carruan farm in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Scott Mann). We heard from farmers about how we can meet our net zero and carbon targets, deliver on nature recovery and boost sustainable food production. At the farm, they are successfully trying to do that. They are finding out which of their fields are non-productive and doing more with that. I will come to some of its concerns later on.

As we have heard, the key concern shared by farmers throughout Cornwall is the struggle to absorb rising input costs, which are increasing three times faster than the headline UK inflation rate. As we have heard, agflation topped 30% in April and is currently at about 28.4%. The war in Ukraine has pushed up the already sky-high input costs of the three Fs: fertiliser, fuel and feed. This year, fertiliser trebled in price, and red diesel, as I have heard from my fishermen and farmers, has doubled in price, which is a much larger increase compared with road diesel. In March, concentrate animal feed prices had increased by about 15.6% compared with the previous year. Those price rises come at a time when the industry faces longer-term challenges due to not only the transition away from the basic payment scheme but labour shortages and the impact of new trade and environmental policies. Alongside the variable role of the weather—of course—the decisions that farmers are making feel more like a gamble than ever before.

I thank the Government for listening last winter and extending the seasonal agricultural workers scheme to our daffodil pickers in particular, because there was going to be a disaster in the making. It took a lot of effort—it was not the Minister but the Home Office that we needed to convince—but we were listened to in the end and that saved an awful lot of jobs and gave security to our farmers.

Those challenges are impacting on the food we are producing as a nation, and leading to a crisis of confidence among our farmers. The cost of living crisis will only worsen if our domestic food security is undermined. Although they are larger than they used to be, farm businesses in Cornwall are smaller than the national average, and they are more likely to be livestock-oriented and still family-based. Small livestock farms have higher costs and smaller revenue, and they are more reliant on support payments for now, meaning that BPS reductions have hit hard and early in the transition.

In 2020, Cornwall received £51.6 billion in BPS payments. The reason for highlighting that figure is not to suggest that we are merely swapping this for a smaller-size replacement, but the future of sustainable farming will not be built on the same old subsidy models. I raise this issue so that the Government can think proactively about mitigating the adverse impacts on the farming community and the business ecosystem of the Cornish countryside of simply withdrawing that payment, and I urge the Government to produce on-farm business advice to support the transition. I believe we heard that earlier, and it was one of the main points that come out of our farm visit in North Cornwall a couple of weeks ago.

There seem to be a lot of grants available for farmers—a huge number are out there for them to access—but the time-consuming and complicated nature of the grant application is causing them huge issues. What they are really looking for are people who have local knowledge on the ground in the county and who can help guide them through the cost of living crisis, be it through the local enterprise partnership, the council or DEFRA agents. Farmers really need on-site support, and they also need effective business plans with a clear direction of travel to improve productivity.

The Government have taken a range of actions to tackle the challenges, including delaying the introduction of changes to urea fertiliser for at least a year and the recent launch of the new grant scheme for storing slurry on farms. The Government have also committed to spending £600 million on farm-based innovation over the next three years, and have laid out further details of the sustainable farming incentive. That will reward farmers for promoting the common good and bolstering our food security.

However, farmers are still under real pressure, and the Government have a range of options available for further support. The Government must focus on protecting UK food production and security by assisting farmers and managing the high costs. That includes working with farmers to diversify inputs, and investing in new technologies that will improve their resource and efficiency. We must also support farmers to find new ways to manufacture more organic-based fertiliser products and utilise techniques, including using nitrogen as an alternative fertiliser. The other thing that I learned on the farm visit a couple of weeks ago, and from speaking to other farmers in Cornwall, is that one size does not fit all, even in Cornwall. Somebody three miles down the road will have completely different soil, so what works for them will not work for their neighbour, which is why we need people on the ground who can really help in these situations.

The Government should look at encouraging the uptake of regenerative farming to reduce input costs, encouraging more pasture-fed livestock to reduce feed costs, and supporting new production methods in the forthcoming food strategy White Paper. I also support calls from the NFU for Ministers to assess the impact of any new policy or regulation on domestic food production, which is hugely important at the moment.

Our farming industry is facing very difficult circumstances, with many farmers struggling to pay their bills. That is threatening food security and worsening the cost of living crisis for us all, but they are a resilient bunch. I look forward to continuing to meet our farmers, listening to their concerns and talking to our Government. I will work with the Minister and my neighbours on both sides—the Secretary of State and the new Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double)—to make sure that we back this vital industry going forward.

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[The Minister for Farming, Fisheries and Food (Victoria Prentis)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, as it has been to listen to the constructive suggestions across the House on how to deal with the very real difficulties in the sector, largely caused by high rises in input costs. I will start by addressing the various issues that colleagues mentioned, and will do my best to answer the very wide-ranging group of issues raised as comprehensively as I can.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) for securing the debate. I also thank our former DEFRA Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby), who served the Department with great distinction and a great deal of hard work. She is a real champion for Devon farmers. I have heard her and have met her farmers with her on many occasions as they tell her what they need. I reassure her that the advisory board conversation will continue in the next few weeks.

My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) made a comprehensive speech. Again, she frequently buttonholes me on behalf of her farmers and her fishermen. The future farming resilience fund is available to give exactly the sort of advice that she envisages. I would love to talk to her about that outside the debate, if that would be helpful to her.

I have frequently discussed farming issues with my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) and the farmers he represents so well. I agree that the opportunities for the future of agriculture are vast. Let me put on record how pleased I am that we passed, with agreement broadly across the House, Committee stage of the Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill last week. In a week that was perhaps difficult for the Government, that was a high point and is exactly what my hon. Friend means when he says that there are real opportunities for the future of agriculture if we are able to grasp the regulatory space. I would be delighted to visit Harper Adams, although my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), who so recently and sadly departed from the Department, visited extremely recently and came away full of ideas.

I was interested to hear what the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) said. He and I have spoken, as he has with my Secretary of State, about the difficult issues facing Ince. My understanding is that discussions, which are commercially sensitive, are still under way. I would welcome the opportunity to talk to the hon. Gentleman directly about the current situation. I am also very happy to make his points across Government if he feels that would be helpful. The situation with Ince is worrying for all of us who care about fertiliser prices, although I recognise that it is particularly difficult for those whose jobs are at risk.

These are not easy times for our farmers, who face increasing costs, particularly for fertiliser, animal feed, fuel and energy. Undoubtedly, that is creating short-term cash flow pressures. The Government have announced a series of measures to help farmers with those pressures and to support them through an undoubtedly difficult time. From the end of July, we are bringing forward half this year’s basic payment scheme payment as an advanced injection of cash to farm businesses. That is a practical and appropriate solution to current input problems. Payments will be made in two instalments each year for the remainder of the agricultural transition period. I am very pleased with that policy decision.

I am fully aware of the cost of fertiliser. The current cost is a little lower than my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton suggested—it is between £700 and £750 a tonne, although I accept that that is considerably more than usual. As a purchaser of fertiliser, I am always extremely aware of that market, as are most farmers. Although cereals farmers, such as me, often buy ahead and will be able to manage for this year at least, livestock farmers often buy much later in the season, and we need them to have the confidence to make purchasing decisions and put in orders so that we are assured that enough fodder crops will be grown in the next 12 months.

I have worked extremely closely with farmers’ representatives—the NFU, the Country Land and Business Association, and the tenants—to build confidence through cross-Government and industry working, and by ensuring that the Government pull all the levers we can to make the situation better, short, frankly, of writing the cheque for everybody’s fertiliser bill. We have issued updated guidance to provide clarity to farmers about how they can use slurry and other manures during autumn and winter. We have delayed the changes to the use of urea fertiliser, and we have introduced new slurry storage grants to help farmers to comply with the farming rules for water. The aim of all that, of course, is to reduce the dependency on artificial fertiliser.

My hon. Friend asked about the potential to increase transparency in the fertiliser market through the NFU suggestion of a gas fertiliser index. We are currently working with the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board, the Agricultural Industries Confederation and the NFU on how best to achieve fertiliser price transparency. My hon. Friend should please keep talking to me about how that can be best achieved. Some sensible suggestions were made today, not least by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake), but there is a bit more work to be done. We need to continue to work on this policy area to get it absolutely right. The fertiliser taskforce, which I chair with my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds, is very much continuing, and I believe we have a meeting next week. This is ongoing work. It is not easy, but we are doing our best to be flexible and react where we can.

We recognise that feed is a particular issue for the pig and poultry sectors. As of 1 June, we successfully concluded the removal of section 232 tariffs, allowing us to remove the 25% tariff on US maize imports. That was a key industry ask and should be an important step in opening alternative sourcing options. Again, we remain very open to working with the industry on specific asks.

We are the only sector with a carve-out for seasonal labour, and I think that is absolutely right. I am convinced that seasonal worker visas are a critical part of how we bring the harvest home. I am happy to continue to make the case for them across Government. We have achieved an extra 10,000 visas through the seasonal agricultural worker scheme route, so we have 40,000 visas for this summer and winter, which are critical to maintaining the agricultural labour provision.

Through the Agriculture Act, we have taken powers to look at supply chain fairness in more detail. We started by dealing with the dairy sector, and we plan to take regulatory action in it as a result of our work later this year. It is complex and we need to get it right. We are about to launch a review of the pig sector supply chain. I look forward to announcing that formally shortly and to giving more details of the consultation process.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton asked about farm business loans to support farmers with rising costs. My officials in the Department regularly meet the agricultural leads of major banks, and I have done so on several occasions. I have also had a special meeting with agricultural leads about the pig sector. In the most recent meeting, on 7 July, the banks suggested that the level of debt among UK farmers is low in comparison with other European countries, and that they are very willing to view farmers as a good industry to lend to. We will continue to engage closely with banks to monitor the situation, but as yet I am not hearing evidence from the industry that it is not getting loans where that is appropriate.

In the briefing that the NFU prepared for this debate, it called for mandatory food resilience assessments of new policies. I reassure Members that the Ag Act already commits the Secretary of State to consider the need to encourage the production of food. That is the basis of our new schemes and is very much part of the food strategy that was published a few weeks ago and embedded in departmental policy.

I want to briefly touch on the NFU survey that was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton, which suggested that a certain proportion of farmers are intending to reduce production or exit the industry. Surveys are useful and a helpful gauge of what is happening, but not all farmers are members of the NFU. It is important that we continue to monitor the situation closely. I am confident that we have strong and resilient food production in this country. The pig sector in particular is facing challenges. We believe that close to 60,000 sows may have been taken out of production over the last year, but we must put that in context: in 2021, the pig herd grew by nearly 10%, to the biggest it has been in 20 years.

I have worked extremely closely with the pig industry over the last nine months. There is still money being made in the pig world—not by the producers, I agree, but I am determined that the supply chain review is the way to go. I encourage anybody involved in the sector to lean in extremely heavily to the work we are about to launch in that sector. We need to make sure that the supply chain is fair, and we need to eat more British pig. We produce in this country about 60% of what we consume. I would very much like that figure to go up, not least for animal welfare reasons. I will do everything in my power to work with the pig industry—producer, processor and retailer—to achieve that.

In the arable sector, we are expecting increased yields this year, although I must confess that, as a cereal farmer, I look out of the window at very dry weather and worry—that will not surprise anybody—although our wheat area is in fact forecast to be up a little, by a percentage point. Winter barley is up about 10% and rape up about 9% from last year. There are of course real concerns about profit margins, and we have rehearsed the reasons why, although current indications are that the crop is expected to be good—as a farmer, I almost cannot say that sentence for fear of upsetting the harvest, but at the moment we are hopeful and confident in this year’s supply.

On the agricultural transition, direct payments are not a system that I am prepared to defend. Some 50% of direct payments go to 10% of the largest farms and landowners. There are better ways of spending the agricultural subsidy pot. Smaller farmers might well need further intervention if input costs continue to rise, but I am convinced that there are more targeted ways that we can help.

We opened the new sustainable farming incentive on 30 June and are pleased with the application rate so far. I should emphasise that throughout the agricultural transition, which is by its nature slow—we have purposefully worked over a seven-year period to enable farmers to adapt, change their ways and plan for the way that they run their businesses—the pot of money available to support farmers will remain the same for this Government. It will, however, be more targeted and be used to support public goods. We have ambitious environmental goals, which are generally supported across the House. Farmers want to help us to achieve those, and we want to reward them for doing so.

There have never been arbitrary divisions in how much money attaches to each sector of future farming schemes. Those schemes are very much designed to be stacked, so the SFI is not in itself intended to replace fully BPS, but should be stacked with the other schemes to ensure that farmers are properly rewarded.

In my view, subsidy is useful in agriculture, and I am very happy to argue across Government for the pot to remain at £3.7 billion. I think that is a good figure for us to spend on helping our farmers to produce public goods.

[Cherilyn Mackrory]

Briefly, on the payments being stacked, my farmers say that there seems to be a lot more that they have to do to get the same payments. How can we streamline the process?

[Victoria Prentis]

As I said, I do not think that direct payments are defensible. We as farmers received money for doing nothing but owning our land. In the future schemes, farmers may have to change their behaviours or work in a slightly more environmental manner. In some cases, they may have to change very significantly what they are doing on parts of their land. I accept that. This is change. This is difficult, but it is worth it for those nature gains and environmental and carbon capture gains, on which I know there is great consensus across the Chamber.

Farmers are dealing with this period of change and transition by voting with their application forms. Now, more than half of farmers, including myself, are in a stewardship scheme. Those are mid-tier schemes, and we have said that we will seamlessly transition farmers in such schemes into the mid-tier of the new future farming schemes. That is not a complete solution but it is a coherent interim one while we continue to work on the agriculture transition to get the policies absolutely right.

I think the food strategy will be welcomed by all Members who have spoken. The goal of food security has been mentioned across the Chamber, as has buying British. The land use strategy, which we will work on in 2023, will deal with some of the specific points raised in the debate, not least by my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton. As ever, I am happy to meet any Member’s farmers if they would find that useful. I accept that change is difficult. We need to help farmers to manage that and to continue to produce not only the food we love, but the public goods for which we are very keen to continue to pay them.

Fly-tipping and Illegal Dumping

Cherilyn Mackrory Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2022 Westminster Hall

[Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Saqib Bhatti) on securing the debate, and I welcome the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mrs Hamilton) to Westminster Hall for the first time.

I speak as a former Cornwall councillor and as the Member representing Truro and Falmouth in Cornwall, where fly-tipping is a major concern, as it is in the other constituencies we have heard about in the debate. I regularly hold beach cleans and litter picks around the coastline and throughout the countryside—we are deeply saddened to see our beauty spots stained by the irresponsible dumping of household goods—and I thank my parish and town councils and the volunteers who take part every day. In Cornwall, it feels like it is in our DNA to pick up litter where we see it.

Fly-tipping is a significant blight on the environment. It is a source of pollution and a potential danger to public health, and it costs council tax payers vast sums every year. Every year, Cornwall Council spends an estimated £250,000 on clearing up waste that has been tipped around the duchy. It is no wonder that the people of Truro and Falmouth have had enough.

Unlike some who have spoken, I will not name our hotspots, and I hope that hon. Members will understand why. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall) spoke about the national trend, but in Cornwall we have seen a decrease in our instances of fly-tipping since the pandemic. In 2018, we had just over 4,500 instances throughout the whole of Cornwall, while last year, we had just over 3,000. I am pleased to say that that is because we now have a Conservative council that is actually tackling the issue, and I thank everybody involved at the council—the officers and the councillors—for their incredible hard work.

The council’s strong joint-working relationship with the waste contractor means that it now has many individuals on the ground to help to gather evidence. The council has also trained town and parish councils on how to report instances of fly-tipping, ensuring that they provide sufficient information for cases to be investigated and that partner organisations are credible witnesses when they identify fly-tipping.

Council officers also undertake surveillance operations in known fly-tip hotspots, using camera equipment. The council successfully prosecuted a persistent fly-tipper in February 2022 following a surveillance operation—the prosecution resulted in fines and costs of £7,348—and further operations are being organised. Although that is positive progress, nobody should fly-tip at all, and that is why we still have much work to do.

I will not repeat the calls for the Government to act, because I know that we all feel the same way, but I support the calls from the National Farmers Union for effective punishments to deter criminals from dumping waste illegally. That could be achieved by developing further guidance so that effective punishments can be delivered when prosecuting, which would support our farmers and landowners. That would include raising awareness of offences that affect rural and coastal communities in particular, and working with those who bring cases to court to ensure that they make full use of the range of sentencing powers available to them.

In addition, I support the NFU’s calls for the development of a single reporting mechanism so that farmers and land managers have to report a fly-tipping incident only once. Currently, victims often need to report incidents to multiple authorities, which is frustrating and time-consuming for busy farmers. Such a mechanism would ensure that the correct authority is informed and that feedback is available following each report. I stress that I also support the call for increased fines, but I will let the Minister address that because I know that she has already heard the call from colleagues today.

Glue Traps (Offences) Bill

Cherilyn Mackrory Excerpts

Friday 19th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

First and foremost, I pay tribute to my good and hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East (Jane Stevenson), who has put in a huge amount of hard work to bring this private Member’s Bill forward, and is hugely disappointed that she cannot be here today due to illness. I am sure that everybody in the Chamber will wish her the very best, and I know that she is watching proceedings as we speak. She would like to thank the team at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the House Clerks and all the animal welfare organisations that have helped her to bring the Bill to this stage.

Perhaps it would help if I started by explaining why I consider it to be crucial to ban the use of glue traps to catch rodents in all but the most exceptional circumstances. For those who do not know, these primitive traps are exactly what they sound like, and the way in which they are often used is every bit as barbaric as Members might imagine. Glue traps are cardboard or plastic boards with non-drying glue applied to them, and are set to catch rodents that walk across them. To quote the British Veterinary Association, animals caught in these traps can suffer from

“torn skin, broken limbs and hair removal and die a slow and painful death from suffocation, starvation, exhaustion and even self–mutilation.”

In modern Britain—a country that seeks to achieve the highest animal welfare standards in the world—we simply cannot allow these traps to be used in everyday life anymore. If countries such as New Zealand and Ireland can restrict these traps without any demonstrable impact on rodent control, I can see no reason why we cannot follow suit in England.

Hundreds of thousands of glue traps are sold every year in the UK, with many users unaware of how to deal with the animals that they may catch. Like many organisations, Humane Society International has worked hard to raise awareness about the harm that glue traps can cause. A survey that it conducted in 2015 unearthed some truly upsetting information.

Just 20% of the people surveyed would recommend killing a trapped animal using the method advised by the professional pest control industry—a manner that is regarded as humane by experts. Some 15% said that they would recommend drowning an animal, throwing it away alive or just leaving it to die in such a trap. All these are inhumane and could be considered an offence under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. More than two thirds, or 68%, of respondents agreed that glue traps should be banned.



People who have used glue traps have shared their experiences online and say things such as:

“Please don’t use glue traps. I naively didn’t think what they would entail when our next door neighbour had a rat and when we put a glue trap a small mouse got caught and I cried for hours because it was so horrific. It was dying slowly and all its limbs were broken. I gave it some water and food and my husband had to end its life because it was obviously in so much pain.”

[Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is outlining the reasoning behind the Bill and the horrific deaths that these poor creatures can endure. Will she explain why the Bill refers only to rodents and not some of the other small wild animals that can be affected and hurt dreadfully?

[Cherilyn Mackrory]

Glue traps are generally bought to be put down for rodents, so we can legislate for that. They are often used to catch other animals—and other animals can be caught unintentionally—but they are not necessarily put down for that purpose. Legislation is already in place—I cannot quite remember, because it is not my Bill, but it is either the Animal Welfare Act 2006 or the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981—to protect wild birds, but the Bill will go one step further to protect all animals, not just rodents, albeit that we can only really legislate for that.

[Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

A housing estate in my constituency has plagues of rats—so much so that I have seen them going round on the fencing and into people’s houses where their young children are trying to play. What is my hon. Friend’s view about rats?

[Cherilyn Mackrory]

Where do I start? That is a horrendous problem; once such problems get out of hand they can be extremely difficult to get under control. I hope my hon. friend will forgive me if I make some progress; perhaps he will hear how we can tackle such things later in my speech. In short, though, in all these circumstances prevention is better than cure, and alternative methods can be used to help with situations such as the one he described.

Let me return to the experiences we have read about online. Another lady said that her husband

“found three mice last winter stuck to”—

a glue trap—

“and told me never ever again to use it. He said they had started to bite their legs off to get free.”

I must make a confession. When I discovered that I had to step into the breach for my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East, my mind went back to when I lived across the river in Kennington 20 years ago. We were on the third floor of an old house that had been made into flats and we had a mouse problem. I was quite squeamish—I still am, to a certain extent—so my housemate decided that he would take care of it and put down one of these glue traps. The next morning, I got up for work early—much earlier than him—and saw a mouse in the trap. It was horrible: it was twitching and had not quite died but I could not bring myself to do anything. I feel so guilty, but I am not the sort of person who could just plonk an animal on the head, so I had to wake him up and ask him to deal with it. So I have seen this with my own eyes and it is just horrible. Nobody would do this on purpose to a cat, dog or any other living creature; I do not know why we think it is acceptable for animals by which we are repulsed, such as rats or mice. We really need to do better.

The examples I have given are far from exhaustive. Glue traps also pose a risk to other animals—as mentioned, wild birds, hedgehogs and cats have all been caught on glue traps, often fatally. Those are just some of the incidents that have been reported to the RSPCA, which has seen hundreds of cases over recent years—and those are just the tip of the iceberg. Some Members may remember the harrowing story of Miles, a black and white cat who was found in an alleyway in north London last year with four glue traps stuck to him. Miles was scared, in extreme pain, and suffering with such horrific injuries that unfortunately he had to be put to sleep.

[Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for filling in for my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East (Jane Stevenson). How can she be sure that the proposed restrictions on the use of glue traps will not lead to problems with rodent control?

[Cherilyn Mackrory]

As I said earlier, many alternatives can be used. For example, similar legislation was introduced in New Zealand some time ago. The Bill would introduce a licensing scheme, to which I will refer later; in New Zealand, with its population, the number of licences and instances of use is still in single figures and we are not aware of an overwhelming rodent problem in New Zealand. The industry has moved on. It is about managing problems in a better way, similar to how pest-control professionals use chemicals and such like.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

I commend my hon. Friend for stepping into the breach because of the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East (Jane Stevenson). She makes a persuasive case about the unpalatable nature of this treatment. Does she have a view on the overall effectiveness of glue traps in the totality of pest control? Does she think that, by banning these awful things, there will be a negative effect on our ability to control rodent populations?

[Cherilyn Mackrory]

As I alluded to earlier, that does not seem to be the case because of the alternatives already available to the industry and the examples that we see in other countries.

What can people use instead? As always, prevention is better than cure, and effective rodent-proofing is always the best solution. However, when the problem has already been identified and got out of hand, people can consider live capture and release, which is much more humane, and lethal options such as the good old-fashioned snap traps from “Tom and Jerry” cartoons, which are designed to kill instantly. Although that might be horrific, it is a better, quicker and more humane death for the rodents. Many businesses already stock those alternative traps, and an increasing number of people are refusing to stock glue traps, already believing them to be inhumane and entirely unsuitable for amateurs.

The Bill, as we see in clause 1, would make it an offence to set a glue trap for the purpose of catching a rodent or in a manner that gives rise to a risk that a rodent could become caught in it. That would also prevent such traps being used where they pose a risk to other animals. The maximum sentence of six months in prison and/or an unlimited fine is consistent with sentences for similar trapping offences in the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981.

In exceptional circumstances, the use of glue traps by professional pest controllers may unfortunately still be necessary. Glue traps may capture rodents more quickly than other methods, so they could still be needed when a rapid capture is required for reasons of public health or safety, such as in the cockpit of a jumbo jet before it is due to take off or if there was a risk of a fire in a hospital. If rodents have got in and are gnawing wires where other types of traps cannot be placed and we think that public safety is at real risk, glue traps might need to be used. To cover such eventualities, clause 2 sets out the provisions for a licensing regime that will allow the Secretary of State to authorise a pest controller to use a glue trap to catch a rodent if that is needed to preserve public health or safety and—this is key—no other satisfactory solution is available. Such situations are expected to be very rare, as I mentioned in the New Zealand example. A licensing regime has the benefit of allowing strict conditions to be imposed on the use of said glue traps, such as the frequency of checking traps, to minimise any detrimental impacts on animal welfare. That is key. If such traps must be laid, a qualified pest controller would be on hand to put the poor thing out of its misery, should it get trapped.

Clause 2 would allow the Secretary of State to delegate the licensing functions to any competent public authority. That is currently expected to be Natural England, which is already responsible for administering other licences relating to wildlife. Provision is made to charge fees for licence applications to enable the recovery of costs for processing applications and monitoring for compliance.

The Bill would grant enforcement powers to police constables and, in clause 5, to authorised inspectors. Inspectors would be authorised by the Secretary of State and are expected to be employed by the licensing body. Authorised inspectors would have the powers to inspect pest control businesses authorised to use glue traps under licence to ensure that those licence conditions were being complied with.

Clause 10 would allow for the Bill’s provisions to be commenced by regulations made by the Secretary of State. The expectation is that offences in clause 1 will be commenced two years after Royal Assent. That will allow the users of glue traps ample time for any transition to other legal methods of rodent control that are already available. It will also give sufficient time to put a suitable licensing regime in place, in consultation with the pest control industry and other stakeholders. Regulations relating to the licensing regime may be commenced prior to the two years to allow the said licensing regime to be in place before the offences in clause 1 are applicable. As wildlife management is a devolved matter, the Bill applies only to England. I am aware, however, that the Welsh and Scottish Governments have indicated an interest in legislating to restrict the use of glue traps.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East (Jane Stevenson) for promoting the Bill, and she would like to thank everybody who has been involved—I will probably miss some names out, so forgive me—including Animal Aid, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Humane Society International, the British Veterinary Association and many more, not least the Conservative Animal Welfare Foundation.

It is often said that we are a nation of animal lovers, and I believe that we are. All Members will recognise the truth of that through the correspondence that we receive from our constituents on animal welfare matters. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake) and I have been on the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill Committee this week; this issue is very emotive and we always strive to do the best that we can on a cross-party basis. We must take this opportunity, therefore, to continue to raise the bar on animal welfare in this country and ban the use of glue traps in all but the most exceptional circumstances. I urge all hon. Members to support the Bill from my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East in its smooth passage through the House and on to the statute book.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Jerome Mayhew). His last point was very important, and I hope it will be taken on board by the promoter of the Bill. I wish my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East (Jane Stevenson) well and I hope that she is soon back in her place in this House.

In my many years of assiduously attending Fridays, I have seen some extraordinary Bill titles, but this is the first time that we have had what is essentially a rat protection Bill. It is difficult to explain to our constituents that we need to protect rats through legislation. Rats carry disease, particularly Weil’s disease which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Dr Spencer) will know, is a bacterial infection also known as leptospirosis. It is carried most commonly in rats and can be caught by humans by being in contact with rat urine or faeces. There are a significant number of cases of Weil’s disease in our country every year.

We know that rats breed incredibly rapidly, and reference was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland to that. The figures are that brown rats can have 2,000 babies in a single year. It is commonplace to have 22 in a single litter. For that reason, we should take very seriously what seems to me to be growing evidence of a plague of rats across large parts of our country. In my constituency, there has been what I regard as inappropriate housing development on former forest and heath. What has happened in many respects is that the rats that were living there naturally beforehand have taken over the new area that has been built and are creating mayhem for residents.

Why are we bringing forward legislation that is effectively designed to try to make people think of rats as friends rather than enemies? They are enemies to our public health. If we are going to wait for two years before we introduce these constraints and the regulations set out in the Bill, what will be the test as to whether things have improved in that period?

[Cherilyn Mackrory]

I appreciate the points that my hon. Friend is making, but I want to clarify a point before he carries on down that road. The Bill is absolutely not to protect rats; I certainly would not support a Bill that protects a rat population. If there are rat populations in his area, as he suggests, perhaps the banning of glue traps will not make any difference to that, because they are not making any difference to that at the moment. There are other methods in circulation that are more effective and more cost-effective. If there is a problem such as the one that he describes, a licensed pest controller can be brought in to deal with it forthwith.

[Sir Christopher Chope]

I can assure my hon. Friend that licensed pest controllers have been very active on this housing estate. I have spoken to them, and they have said that it is fantastic; it is money for old rope, because nothing that they do has any lasting impact, which is one of the problems.

Some people—this happens with farmers and people who keep chickens and so on—say, “To deal with rats, I am going to get a cat as a ratting cat”, but what do cats do? They do not only attack rats; they also attack birds and wildlife, so much so that that is a real crisis in our country. Rats themselves often attack small birds, and they certainly take birds’ eggs. We would be going down a very slippery slope if we tried to treat one of these areas of the whole balance of nature in isolation. Basically, nobody likes the idea that glue traps will result in suffering for other animals, any more than I like the idea that as a result of the behaviour of cats, a lot of birds are dying needlessly. We have got to have a balance.

The Bill sets out the offences and so on in clause 1, but it does not require the Secretary of State to issue any licences in clause 2. It just says that the Secretary of State “may” grant a licence, so there is no connection between the creation of the offences and ensuring that the Secretary of State has to issue licences to try to counteract the consequences of outlawing glue traps used by unlicensed people.

I am concerned about this Bill, and I do not think my constituents will understand it at all. I hope we can have stronger confirmation from the Government that we are going to eliminate rats before we start dealing with eliminating the means by which we may be able to control rats. As I said at the beginning, rats and rodents are dangerous to public health, and we ignore that at our peril.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Thank you. I call Cherilyn Mackrory.

[Cherilyn Mackrory]

With the leave of the House, I would like to address a few of the points that have been made today. [Interruption.]

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Jo Churchill)]

I had hoped to speak.

--- Later in debate ---

[Cherilyn Mackrory]

With the leave of the House, I wish to address a few of the points made in the debate.

The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake) was concerned about the possibility of 12 hours of suffering. The technology is now available: some of the glue traps used by professional pest controllers have pad sensors that alert the pest controller that there is something on the trap, so they can be there an awful lot quicker than 12 hours. One would therefore hope that it would not be that long in practice. She also asked about the Bill being confined only to rodents; rodents are the reason why people buy glue traps—people do not buy them to catch birds—so if the legislation covers the use of glue traps for rodents, it will cover the vast majority of purchases.

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Jerome Mayhew)—having come late to this issue and having read the Bill very late, the issue of passers-by jumped out at me, too, so I am pleased that the Minister addressed it. We should not forget that there will be two years between Royal Assent and the introduction of licences, so a huge amount of education can go on among the general public—in respect of retailers, labelling and whatnot—so that people know what is going to happen. If somebody stumbled across a glue trap, they would probably think they needed to do something about it.

I reiterate to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope) that this is not a rat-protection Bill; all it will do is remove one method that the public use on a daily basis to deal with rodents. There are many much more effective and cost-effective alternatives. I hope that that reassures my hon. Friend.

I again thank my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East (Jane Stevenson). I am sorry that she could not be present today—she is desperately disappointed not to have been able to present the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Public Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63).