Egypt: British Support

Debate between Charlotte Leslie and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 2nd March 2016 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I thank the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) for giving us a chance to speak on this matter. It does not seem like it is three years since we had a similar debate in Westminster Hall. Incidentally, I think the leader of the Labour party was part of that debate. Remarkably, we seemed to agree across the Chamber on all the human rights and equalities issues, and I do not believe it will be any different today, because the Members here are of the same mind.

For decades, Egypt has not only been a beacon of hope in the middle east and north Africa for freedom and liberty in comparison with its neighbours, but done well economically. The hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) in her last few words referred to democracy in Egypt. Co-operation with NATO and the west has been priceless; we saw how much that meant when Egypt suffered from instability following what was called the Arab spring.

It is pleasing to see the shadow Minister and the Minister in their places. I look forward to both of their contributions and I am quite sure that the Minister will be as positive as ever. He has the ability to understand what we are thinking and put that in his answers.

At the end of last year, my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) was appointed the economic envoy to Egypt—the Minister will know that. We are pleased that someone from this House has direct input and can carry the banner, so to speak, for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—in Northern Ireland we are fond of carrying banners. That is fantastic news and we fully support him.

[Charlotte Leslie]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the very appointment of a trade envoy to Egypt—our current envoy is excellent—illustrates that the Government really want to engage? Does he also agree that in John Casson and Nasser Kamel we have two good ambassadors who are extremely good at engaging with their respective populations and acting together?

[Jim Shannon]

I can only agree with the hon. Lady on all those points. I will mention one of the ambassadors later on in my speech, because lots of good things have been done.

I want to look at the debate in a positive fashion, but I also want to highlight some issues. While we recognise the small and giant steps that Egypt has taken, we must look at some of the changes needed. I want to talk about them in a respectful fashion, which is important.

Relationships, which are proving fruitful, still exist as we seek to foster peace in the region. They are invaluable in the fight against Daesh. Egypt needs to be a lead nation in any coalition against Islamic State. We may not hear about it often, but Egypt’s borders are crossed on many occasions from Libya, where Daesh groups operate in units. They have attacked and in their activities a number of Egyptian soldiers and civilians have been murdered. They are on the front line, so let us give them the support they need. When the Minister responds, he will probably be able to tell us a wee bit more about what we are doing. I know it is not his remit, but perhaps he can say how we can support them militarily. It is important that we do so and that we are seen to do so.

We need to do everything we can to support one of our strongest allies in the region in its drive to return to stability so that it can not only use its military and diplomatic capabilities, but reignite as the beacon of hope that once shone in north Africa and the middle east. For all its problems, Egypt has shown itself to be a bulwark against the instability and chaos that plagues other countries not too far away in the middle east and the Arab world. Instability has swept over them like a tidal wave, but it has not to the same extent in Egypt.

Egypt is strong, Egypt is our friend, and it makes economic, political and strategic sense to ensure that it remains our friend to provide the stability necessary in the middle east, now and in the years and decades to come. Notably, al-Sisi’s top security concern is the presence of Daesh in the Sinai peninsula. Earlier I mentioned the attacks from Daesh groups in Libya, which illustrate that. That is dangerous from a human point of view, a regional and global security point of view and an economic point of view. It offers a new launch pad for the abhorrent Daesh disturbingly close to our other ally in the region, the state of Israel.

It should be remembered—no one in the Chamber will have any doubts about it—that Israel has been Egypt’s ally from the beginning of biblical times. In the past the relationships were strong, even with the Arab and the Jew. We still have that working relationship between Egypt and Israel, which is perhaps unique in the middle east, not only on economic things, but to combat Daesh and take on the threat of Palestinian terrorists. Egypt sees the threat, Israel sees the threat, and they work together to ensure that the tunnels that have been used by some, coming from Egypt towards Israel and the Palestinians, are closed off. We must recognise that Egypt plays a part in that.

Members should be aware that that is being taken seriously by our diplomats in the region. The hon. Lady referred to our ambassador in Egypt, John Casson, who last week addressed an Egyptian Ministry of Tourism conference in Cairo. All Members who have spoken so far have rightly referred to the importance of tourism, which we need to reignite. We need to provide security first of all. Ambassador Casson stressed the importance of the points I have raised: the economic, diplomatic, strategic, and defence and security ties.

[Charlotte Leslie]

Will the hon. Gentleman join me in becoming one of the first people on a flight back to Sharm el-Sheikh? I am asking him on holiday.

[Jim Shannon]

As a married man, I have to be careful. [Laughter.] I am very loyal and dutiful to my wife, who I love, but if it was in a purely platonic way, I think that would be okay.

The ambassador praised the efforts of Egypt to re-emerge from the years of instability she suffered following the Arab spring and the Muslim Brotherhood takeover. Three years ago I had a chance to visit Egypt with the all-party parliamentary group on Egypt. I had always wanted to visit Egypt—I had a purpose. The APPG met President el-Sisi in his palace, so I had a chance to put to him issues about freedom of religious belief, which are important for me and for my Christian brothers and sisters in Egypt, and I was impressed by his response to the questions put—I could not say otherwise. He showed his commitment to the change he wanted to see and the society he wanted in Egypt. I was impressed by that. He also won the election shortly after that, and let us be quite clear: a democratic process was carried out and he was overwhelmingly elected. The people were not happy with the Muslim Brotherhood—although they were not happy with Mubarak either—but I believe that President al-Sisi delivered a democratic process to them.

On our visit the members of the all-party group had a chance to raise some issues. We met a pastor in a church in Cairo, called Pastor Sami. People often say to me, when I mention him, “Is he from Belfast?” I say, “No, he is not; he is from Cairo, and he is an Egyptian.” Seven thousand people attend that evangelical church in Cairo, but you will never hear about that, Mr Pritchard. It is one of those things that come out only from visits to Egypt or from having direct contact with places in the area. Pastor Sami wanted the changes. I expressed to him my concerns about people who had converted from Islam to Christianity, and a block being put on them, and asked about the level of direct representation at every level of the democratic process—not just with respect to President el-Sisi. There was a meeting about a month ago of the all-party group on religion or belief, which I chair, and we met some people from Egypt. There are a number of Christian MPs in Parliament in Egypt, taking part in the democratic process and making changes, as they should.

Free Cash Withdrawals

Debate between Charlotte Leslie and Jim Shannon

Monday 8th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

We have similar problems in my constituency, where ATMs are not as available as they should be. I am sure that the Minister will be able to address the issue of how we can encourage banks and building societies to put in ATMs. Perhaps she can also consider raising the awareness of those who use credit cards for withdrawals and should be using debit cards instead. If some of these issues were addressed at this level, that would greatly assist in enabling people to get better access to cash withdrawals without charges.

[Charlotte Leslie]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He makes an absolutely superb point about financial education and information, which could perhaps empower people to kick up a bit more of a stink about the fact that they are having to pay £1.85 to access their own cash. Often people are just getting on with it—life is pretty tough and they do not want to complain and kick up a fuss. Those people should not be having to pay this money. We should empower them to say “No, this isn’t right and we shouldn’t have to put up with it”. I hope that the Minister will address these points.

A lot of words are said in this place, but we need more than words. It is encouraging that action can be taken when Members raise matters and sleeves are rolled up, but I never promise anything before it is done. However, I do promise my constituents—this might be a slight beacon of hope for other people across the country who cannot access free ATMs when they should be able to—that I will do everything I possibly can to end the scandal of lack of access to their own cash in Lockleaze. I have every faith that the Government will do everything they can as well.

Council Sport Provision

Debate between Charlotte Leslie and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 14th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con)]

I want to raise the issue of councils inflicting an enforced monopoly, run by a private sector provider, on the community, often crushing successful and voluntary provision. The specific case that I will discuss relates to sport—specifically swimming—which is relevant to my constituency and others, including that of the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband). I would be interested to hear of any other such cases. The Minister responded to yesterday’s Adjournment debate, so I am particularly grateful to him for his presence for the second day running. I reassure him that this debate is not about sport as such—although the subject has a powerful impact on sport—but is far more about procurement and tendering practice.

I declare an informal interest in this subject, which centres on the crushing of swimming club provision, in that I used to be a swimmer, but sadly I am not as fit any more. As a youngster I ploughed up and down swimming pools at silly o’clock in the morning for four hours a day—and sometimes 10 times a week— in my unfortunately thwarted hope of becoming an Olympian. My skin would smell of chlorine when it rained and I had perpetual goggle marks. For many years I swam under the excellent supervision of one of Bristol’s finest coaches, Eric Henderson.

Being part of a club was part of my identity when I was growing up. It was a proper community and I am still proud of and treasure my first swimming club tracksuit from Thornbury swimming club. It was very much part of what has made me who I am, and it all started when my mum took me to a club to learn to swim.

Learning to swim and making progress with clubs is not for everyone, but it is a vital part of a choice of provision. It is particularly vital for producing our next generation of competitive swimmers, and it is also important—as illustrated by the Portway swimming club in my constituency, which will feature heavily in my speech—for non-competitive swimmers who want to swim slightly more than is possible under council or private provider provision.

The good news is that clubs are generally thriving and many have waiting lists for their Learn to Swim programmes, particularly those for beginners. That is why the phenomenon of some councils acting to stifle successful club provision is so perverse, as the situation in Bristol illustrates.

In 2007, Bristol city council secured a contract with Sports and Leisure Management to run eight leisure centres in the city for 10 years. So far, so good. That was supposed to be done in partnership with the city council, which, despite the fact that it had outsourced provision to a private provider, still took it upon itself to prescribe in some detail how the provision was to be made.

Swimming in Bristol has not had a particularly happy history, as a Google search or a trawl through newspapers from the mid-’90s will reveal. A recent attempt to reshape the city’s swimming came in the form of the now slightly notorious—in Bristol swimming circles—Rick Bailey report. One recommendation was that the council provider’s chief responsibility should be to provide levels 1 to 7 of the Amateur Swimming Association’s Learn to Swim pathway. Again, so far so good.

However, Bristol city council interpreted that recommendation—I believe perversely—as meaning that only the private provider should provide levels 1 to 7 of Learn to Swim. That recommendation did not have the support of the local swimming clubs, but they were pushed into accepting it largely because they did not have any choice or voice to change the decision, despite rather cosy talk in all the documents of “partnership working”.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Lady for bringing this matter to the House. In my constituency, Ards borough council has a very good relationship with the local swimming club. They work together to ensure that everybody has an opportunity to swim. The council owns the premises and Ards amateur swimming club does the renting. Does she agree that that is a prime example of what can happen if a council and a club work together for the benefit of all, so that some young people can become champions, whether provincial, Commonwealth or Olympic?

[Charlotte Leslie]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. What is so sad about this case is that, as he said, when clubs, councils and private providers work together, they can become more than the sum of their parts and there can be huge success stories. All parties should have the interests of children and swimming, or whatever sport it is, at their centre. What is so tragic about this case is that for some reason that I am yet to fathom, Bristol city council has been stubbornly determined to stifle good provision and not to work in partnership with clubs. When any objection is raised, it says that the clubs should know better and that it does work in partnership. However, as we know, partnership is not just a word in a report, but involves communication, liaising and understanding from both sides. This situation does not need to exist and we should all be thinking about the good of the swimmers.

The council and SLM set about ensuring that even clubs that had been providing a successful and valued Learn to Swim programme, with high demand and waiting lists, no longer did so in council-run pools. That has led to an extraordinary situation at swimming clubs such as Portway in my constituency that hire an agreed amount of pool time from SLM in which intermediate and Learn to Swim swimmers both train. Following the ruling that came into force on 1 April, the club is forced to vacate the area of the pool that is used for Learn to Swim. The children, many of whom have older siblings in the more advanced swimming lessons, are forced to sit on the side and not enter the water because they cannot be taught to swim, even though the qualified volunteer teachers are present and the pool space is not being used by anyone else. If the young children were doing another activity, such as attending a children’s party, and were not being taught to swim, it would be okay for them to use the pool. That does not seem very sensible.

The club has been forced to take its Learn to Swim programme to a pool in a neighbouring local authority, South Gloucestershire, which has a slightly less perverse and draconian attitude towards Learn to Swim. That means an extra journey for parents to a pool that is much further away, which is very difficult for single parents. That may also clash with the commitments of other siblings, swimming or otherwise, and many parents are forced to choose which of their children’s commitments to honour.

The key thing to note is that the small number of children who are being taught to swim in a club environment, which cannot be replicated by a private provider in terms of the continuity and focus that are provided by the teachers, does not impact on SLM’s market share of Learn to Swim children. The number of children in Bristol is increasing and there are certainly more than enough children who need to be taught to swim to go around.

Nobody is suggesting that clubs should have a monopoly on provision or even preferential treatment, only that they should be allowed to meet the significant demand for their services, which they have hitherto met very successfully. The result is that children are denied the choice of the benefits that club swimming at an early level provides, such as community and continuity of teaching. One club coach put it well in saying that the two lessons a week at the club not only give children the ability to swim, but inspire them to become a swimmer.

Of course, the impact on competitive swimming will be significant, too. To put it in perspective, in a recent Bristol schools competition, it was estimated that despite there being about 3,000 children who were taught by SLM compared with only 200 who were taught in clubs, club swimmers made up about 50% of the finalists. In other words, if my maths is correct, club swimmers were about seven times more likely to be finalists than non-club swimmers, which is significant.

There are other impacts. Many coaches come through a club system and then go on to coach either in their parent club or in other clubs, or with private providers such as SLM. Clubs are also vital social and community hubs, raising money for charity and, as I have said, providing youngsters with a sense of special identity and pride, as Thornbury, Southwold and City of Bristol swimming clubs did for me.

However, the Minister will be pleased to hear that this debate is not specifically about sport. It serves to demonstrate to him the possible perversity of a council monopoly that is imposed with such odd determination. Indeed, the clubs, the provider, a representative of Gloucester ASA and the councillor with the relevant cabinet brief had a meeting about the matter, at which the councillor, Simon Cook, was extremely good. He brokered a proper, common-sense solution to allow one of the clubs to keep offering Learn to Swim in a council pool until some kind of common-sense compromise had been reached. I was alarmed that his decision was completely ignored, which shows us something about the accountability there. It was ridden roughshod over, particularly by one council officer, Colleen Bevan, who I understand has now gone off to work for a private leisure provider. The private providers told the club that contrary to what had been agreed in the meeting, it could not continue with its pool time. I should mention that we have set up a petition at www.keepclubswimming. bristolpetitions.com, in case anyone wants to sign it.

I finish by saying to the Minister that we all believe in localism, but this case demonstrates some of the perverse behaviour of councils that, instead of facilitating the big society, are crushing it. I am pleased that our new elected mayor, George Ferguson, who inherited the difficult situation, is sympathetic to the clubs’ plight and fully understands the perversity of such a council-enforced monopoly, whether in sport or any other service. I look forward to working with him on this extraordinary situation.

I ask that the Department examines such instances in which smaller providers of any sort, not necessarily in sport, are literally bullied out of existence by local councils that act in every way contrary to any conception of the big society.