Finance Bill

Debate between Charlie Elphicke and Kelvin Hopkins

Tuesday 1st July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke]

I will endeavour to be as brief as possible, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I have often made the case against tax avoidance—international and national—in the House. I have often mentioned the behaviour of the water companies, which used the quoted eurobond exemption to further their strategies. Yet I cannot support the new clause, which is, in the words of the Labour party’s head of policy, the hon. Member for Dagenham and Rainham (Jon Cruddas), nothing less than an “instrumentalised, cynical” nugget

“of policy to chime with…focus groups and…press strategies”.

The shadow Chancellor showed that at the weekend.

The new clause would not raise £500 million. I will be interested to hear the Minister say exactly how much it would raise, as in many cases double taxation treaties could be used. When I raised the loophole in question, my case was about the debt-equity gearing ratio—a far more effective way of looking at the issue. I would be surprised if the Labour party had consulted experts beyond its own advisers. Indeed, there was a consultation on this issue in 2012. I stand to be corrected, but I do not believe the Labour party gave a response to that consultation. It simply thought, “What wheeze can we table as a new clause to plonk out there for our press strategy as our instrumentalised policy nugget?”

The new clause is highly cynical. It has been devised purely to make a case and to say, “Yes, we are on the pitch in the tax avoidance debate.” In fact, when the Labour party was in power receipts from income tax doubled but receipts from corporation tax went up by 6%. Again, we heard cynicism in the debate today with remarks about the tax gap going up by £1 billion to £35 billion. That is because the economy is growing. In reality, the percentage has fallen from 7.1% to 7%, so the tax gap has been heading in the right direction.

The Government have done a lot to make the case on this issue and to take the battle to the tax avoiders. I support the accelerated payments regime—I differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) on this—because people who are subject to it know that they are engaging in a tax avoidance arrangement that is going to be under attack, and so should be prudent and keep the money to one side. If they are not doing so, they should be thinking about things rather more carefully, because they know they have entered into an arrangement that is likely to be under attack from the Revenue.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

It is a disgrace that while millions of ordinary people suffer the privations of wage cuts, unemployment and poverty, a rich minority is avoiding and evading taxes. I am talking about corporates and billionaires. There is indeed one law for the rich and one for the poor, the poor being the great majority of wage and salary earners. They are not necessarily poor in the specific sense, but they pay their taxes—I pay PAYE myself.

The Government’s concerns about the deficit seem hypocritical given that they have failed to collect the taxes that are owed. The estimate of the amount of uncollected tax made by HMRC and the Government is of the order of £40 billion. But estimates by others—including the Public and Commercial Services Union, the trade union that represents the workers in the tax collecting industry, the TUC and Richard Murphy, a noted tax expert I have seen speak on many occasions—put the amount at £120 billion or even more.

Even if we take the £40 billion figure, if the Government collected half of it, that would be an extra £20 billion a year, equivalent to 5p on the standard rate of income tax. I suggest that that would not just bring down the deficit but would give us plenty more to spend on the health service and on decent pay rises for public servants, who have suffered so much for so long.

As for staffing in HMRC, I have spoken out about that under previous Governments as well, not just this one, because that has been a weakness for Government efforts to challenge tax avoidance and evasion for a long period. I will tell a little anecdote. In 1997, when I first came into Parliament, I went to visit my local VAT office. The people there said that if they had more staff, they could collect more taxes. In VAT from local businesses alone, every individual tax inspector collected five times their own salary. Naturally I wrote to the then Chancellor of the Exchequer. I got an answer back from a civil servant, not from the Chancellor, which said that the Treasury wanted to make savings by cutting staff. That is utterly irrational when staff collect many times their own salary.

As I said, with VAT from local firms the amount collected is five times a staff member’s salary. When it comes to the big corporates, extra staff collect many, many times their own salary, and we should have many more tax staff. Perhaps if HMRC did not have such difficulties with staffing, it would be able to work more accurately and would not make the mistakes that have been mentioned.

We have recently seen Vodafone, which apparently owed something like £7 billion in tax, do a cosy little deal with Dave Hartnett, the then boss of HMRC, and pay £1 billion. The rest was siphoned through Luxembourg, I think—wherever it was, large amounts of money were lost from the corporates. Interestingly, Dave Hartnett, who was a public servant and should have been committed to the public interest, retired and finished up as an adviser to corporates on tax avoidance. That is unacceptable. Civil servants should be motivated by the public service ethos and be determined to collect taxes. They should not be cosying up to the corporate world.

Finally, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) has pointed out, the 1,000 richest people in this country have seen their wealth double in the past five years from a quarter of a trillion pounds to half a trillion pounds. That is a staggering amount of money. Much of that must be to do with tax avoidance and tax evasion. If we were to collect just some of that, we would have no deficit and plenty more to spend on the health service.

European Union Bill

Debate between Charlie Elphicke and Kelvin Hopkins

Monday 24th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke]

The shadow Minister for Europe makes a fair point. In my constituency, yes, people’s prime concern is that Labour all but closed the hospital down and that we will be getting a new hospital. They are concerned that they lost jobs and money. They worry about how they will get by, and about the massive amount of borrowing and taxation. I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. My right hon. and hon. Friends in the Government are trying hard to sort out that difficult problem. That will take time.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

I take issue with my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr David). Constitutional matters underlie everything else that happens. For example, constitutionally we chose not to join the euro. Had we joined, our economy would now be utterly wrecked, but in fact it will survive.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, who is highly knowledgeable and skilled in European matters, for making the point far better than I could. I was about to make it myself. Yes, of course schools, hospitals and the economy matter, but what also matters is our sense of nation and our independence as a member state in the European Union, not as a state in a federation. That is essential, and it is essential that we were not in the euro, for the exact reasons that he set out.

Had we been in the euro, we may well have found ourselves in the predicament that we see across the Irish sea or in southern Europe, given the reckless borrowing that took place over the previous decade, which brought our country to the brink of bankruptcy. I, for one, am glad that we did not join the euro. It is the one thing on which I congratulate the new shadow Chancellor and the former Prime Minister—preventing Tony Blair, when he was Prime Minister, from going into the euro. It was the only spark of light and quality in that Government. I am hard pushed to think of any other.

I return to the Bill, having been led astray by those gentle and generous interventions. I shall begin by focusing on clause 11. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) made a series of powerful points about the primacy of Parliament. His argument was that we cannot trust the Ministers of the day because they have their own agenda. If they do not consider a matter significant, they will certify it as not significant. Some check and balance is needed. There must be a resolution of both Houses of Parliament.

When I first thought about that, I found it attractive, but on reflection my concern is that if the Minister considers a matter not to be significant, he will toddle down to the Whips Office and have a chat to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury. He will say, “Look, chief, this isn’t significant. Let’s just whip this vote through the Commons, whip it through the Lords and push it through.” That is what would happen.

--- Later in debate ---

[Charlie Elphicke]

I entirely agree. I remember in times past the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, saying that the Scottish Parliament was a parish council, but it has far more sweeping powers than that. He was making a point about sovereignty and saying that it would not change anything, but a considerable amount of devolution has been given to Scotland. In the same way, the movement towards ever-closer union, which we have seen latterly in the Lisbon treaty, has highlighted the fact that although we are told, “It’s okay, it’s a small step, it won’t make any real difference,” it makes a massive difference.

I will be corrected if am wrong, but I think that about seven of every 10 of our laws are now effectively made in Europe. I have costed that and found that the European Union costs each and every household in this country an average of about £2,000 a year in taxes, which is a substantial sum. The hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) rightly said that our constitution and how we interrelate with Europe are important matters. If he wants to intervene on that point, I will give way.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

The hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) made light of the matter in saying that we would not obey the Whips, but surely the important point is that when the House makes a decision, we as individual MPs with individual votes that will go on the record must account to our electorates for that. It is possible that the Whips will bully, cajole, press and threaten—I have no experience of these things, of course—but our responsibility is to our electorates. In my constituency, a mini-referendum was won by those calling for a national referendum on the Lisbon treaty, and it was publicised on television and elsewhere. On something as fundamental as constitutional change relating to the European Union, the electorate do care. We are accountable to our electorates first, even though we pay lip service and tip our caps to the Whips from time to time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Charlie Elphicke]

My hon. Friend makes exactly the point that concerns me most. New clause 9(5) states:

“The Committee shall consist of no more than 19 Members”—

19 great and good—

“drawn from both Houses”.

But would it include my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), who is so learned and knowledgeable about European matters? Some future Government, operating that selection mechanism, might find that his services were not required, that he was more trouble than he was worth, and that he would talk for too long—perhaps for longer than an hour in Committee—and tie up everyone. In such a manner, they might not include him. I, however, can think of no Member who knows more about the matter than he, except perhaps the hon. Member for Luton North.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I absolutely protest. The hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) knows infinitely more than I do.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Shortly after my hon. Friend the Member for Stone, the hon. Gentleman is a true expert, and whenever he rises to speak I listen with interest and learn.

Would the proposed committee include, for example, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), who is highly knowledgeable but does not always take quite the on-message view that her pager instructs? Would it include my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), or his constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Mr Carswell)? I can think of no more expert people to sit on such a committee, but, if the new clause were passed and the Bill changed as advertised, those people—who are so expert and know so much about matters européenne—would not find themselves on it. I have a sense that the Front-Bench teams of whoever was in power, might not include such people. For that reason, new clause 9 is a Trojan horse. Its purpose, in my humble opinion, is to take power away from the people and to stuff it upstairs in a committee; and that, in essence, is the wrong thing to do.

European Union Bill

Debate between Charlie Elphicke and Kelvin Hopkins

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Kelvin Hopkins]

Indeed; the hon. Gentleman makes an important point. My concern is based on a suspicion that the Government are deliberately trying to leave this open and not have it pinned down so as to give wriggle room for future political events and developments. When something that appears to be so straightforward is resisted so strongly by a Government—even by my own when I was on the Government side of the House—I am always suspicious that there is a reason behind it, and that somewhere in the Government machine there are people wanting to ensure that something does not happen and that they have wriggle room in future. I do not want that to happen.

Like the hon. Member for Stone, I want to make it clear that the sovereignty of the British Parliament is retained as it should be. The people of Britain have made it clear that they want that to happen as well. Overwhelmingly, they are sceptical about the European Union, and it is our job to reflect that scepticism and not to give away to the European Union more potential power over this Parliament. We owe that to our electors. I certainly support them in that, and I support the hon. Member for Stone’s amendment.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

Underlying this entire debate about the European Union, sovereignty and the exact meaning of clause 18 is the fact that many Members of this House, myself included, would like to see a fundamental change in our relationship with the European Union. We would like to have a discussion about whether we control, or Europe controls, what happens in the regulation of the City, industry and business, and how we operate as a nation. There is an underlying desire on the part of many hon. Members to have a review of whether we should be part of the European Union at all. There is a desire to have a reworking of the Human Rights Act 1998 and a question mark as to whether it should be on the statute book at all—a concern that I share and that my constituents continually write to me about with a great level of invective.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Charlie Elphicke and Kelvin Hopkins

Monday 11th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I wish to add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), who spoke in the most heartfelt way about his heartbreakingly lovely and beautiful constituency and in the most thoughtful and considered way about the impact of regulation on smaller businesses. I also wish to congratulate the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury on her elevation and the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) on returning to the Front Bench, even if it is not the Front Bench that he would have preferred to be on—no doubt he is a patient man who will wait to have another go in due course.

This Budget, with this Finance Bill, is an essential piece of legislation. We have a country that is all but bust; its budget deficit is more than £150 billion and we face a structural deficit of £109 billion, according to the Office for Budget Responsibility. What does that tell us? It tells us that two thirds of the current extra borrowing each year has nothing to do with the recession and the global financial crisis, and has everything to do with the economic incompetence of the previous Government. The Leader of the Opposition urges that instead of adopting a fiscal position of raising taxes by one third and cutting spending by two thirds, we should make it 50:50. My hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock) has calculated that that would raise people’s taxes by another £1,300. Such a massive bombshell would not be constructive in this difficult fiscal environment. The Government have taken difficult decisions on taxes, but the further tax rises that the Opposition urge on us are not at all responsible or helpful.

It is therefore right that the coalition is taking the economically responsible and sensible position to step right and stabilise our country and its finances, but we need to have growth and a growth agenda. It is helpful that corporation tax is being reduced to 24% over the next few years, and I hope that in time the Government will be able to go further and bring it down to about 19%. I hope that they will give serious and substantial consideration to a holding company regime such as exists in places such as the Netherlands and Luxembourg, so that the UK becomes a holding company international headquarters of the European time zone. The UK and London, rather than the continent itself, would thus become the jumping off point for Americans investing in Europe, which would provide a massive fiscal stimulus to the UK economy and would make it the financial headquarters centre and the international business centre of the European time zone. We should be very alive to the competitive fight that we have with our European friends, and seek to maximise our position and that of London as the international financial and business centre of this time zone.

We may get a fiscal bounce out of encouraging large businesses to move to this country, set up here and stay here—I note that WPP and Hiscox have left and moved overseas, as have others—but if we want long-term sustainable development and growth, and more jobs and money over the longer term, we need to consider smaller business, because it has a stronger sense of growth over the long term and it supplies the entrepreneurial flair that creates more jobs and money.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I entirely accept the need to sustain small businesses, but small businesses live off two things: first, big businesses, which make orders for them; and, secondly, demand in the economy, as we go for meals out, get building alterations done to our homes and so on. If people are not spending because they are frightened of losing their jobs and having their pensions and benefits cut, that damages small businesses at least as much as it does big businesses.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I would agree with the hon. Gentleman that confidence plays a massive role in our economy—and nowhere more so than with our smaller businesses. The confidence that we have seen since the election seems to be feeding through to the growth figures, which seem to suggest that we are coming out of the recession faster than anyone thought we would. Personally, I think we should be more positive about the prospects for the economy and the prospects for faster growth over the medium term, given the nature of the stabilisation and the confidence that the coalition Government have provided to the country. However, that does not mean that there is not more we can do for small businesses. We can and must, as my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) and others have said, have more liquidity for the small business sector. It has been too locked up in banks preparing their balance sheets—we need more lending.