Water Industry

Debate between Charlie Elphicke and Bill Esterson

Tuesday 5th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, but I will leave it to my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon, who has been studying those issues with considerable care and concern.

Secondly, there is the question of how we tackle tax avoidance. The unacceptable, even antisocial, tax avoidance culture in the water industry has meant that many companies have not paid tax for years. It is wrong that that situation has arisen. Everyone should pay their fair share. We need sustainable debt, not 100% mortgages. Under the previous settlement, these water companies have been allowed to become casinos. We have an opportunity to look carefully at that to see whether the position is safe, secure and sustainable for the future.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has pointed out some of the problems in the industry and with the behaviour of the water companies. All of the companies working on an industrial estate in Formby in my constituency have been overcharged for years and the water company has been allowed to get away with not repaying them because of the way in which the regulations are set up. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is the type of unacceptable practice that needs to be tackled?

[Charlie Elphicke]

Clearly, the billing system needs to be fair.

The issue about debt is that water companies are often leveraged to 100% and then say that they cannot fund infrastructure improvements. Many colleagues have concerns about the Thames tideway tunnel and how that is financed. I am sure that will be explored in due course.

We also need more appropriate investment. If real investment falls, where is the justification to increase bills? We need to ensure that real investment does not fall, that we maintain the investment we need and that it is funded in an appropriate way.

Finance Bill

Debate between Charlie Elphicke and Bill Esterson

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke]

My position is that the bank levy strikes the right balance. That is why I asked the shadow Minister whether her proposal would be in addition to, or an alternative to, the bank levy. That is significant. She is arguing, on the gross figures, for more than £3 billion more to be pulled out of the banking system. That would have an immediate effect on the capital that banks can lend to small businesses and hard-pressed home owners.

[Bill Esterson]

The hon. Gentleman says that his solution is to get the banks lending again. This Government have categorically failed at that. What we are coming forward with is a concrete set of proposals. He has acknowledged that youth unemployment in his constituency is a problem and that it has doubled since his Government came to power. Why will he not accept concrete proposals that would deal with the blight that faces many young people in his constituency?

[Charlie Elphicke]

The hon. Gentleman is simply suggesting that we give with one hand and take away with the other. He might think that he can throw lots of money at dealing with the problem of youth unemployment, but he would meanwhile be constraining businesses in getting the capital that they need to create new jobs and maintain their existing jobs. That is the central flaw in the Opposition’s argument. They want to take more money out of the banking system when capital and lending are already constrained.

The issue that we need to deal with is bonuses. The Government have taken action on bonuses in the taxpayer-owned banks. They have said that there will be no cash bonuses of more than £2,000 at the taxpayer-owned banks. It is right to have longer-term share incentivisation schemes, which align people’s interests with the success of the banks over the longer term.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bill Esterson]

The hon. Gentleman keeps saying that the amount raised by Labour’s levy was lower than £3.5 billion, but the Office for Budget Responsibility has given only one figure. Can he confirm what it was?

[Charlie Elphicke]

The OBR has given so many different figures that I do not know exactly which one the hon. Gentleman is referring to. I will read him what Lord Sassoon said:

“The net yield raised by the bank payroll tax is estimated to be £2.3 billion, while gross receipts were £3.45 billion. An explanation of the methodology underlying the estimate of net yield can be found in”

a previous written answer. He continued:

“In line with guidance from the Office for National Statistics, the yield from the bank payroll tax was allocated to the 2010-11 tax year, as this is the point at which the tax was passed into legislation.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 20 January 2011; Vol. 724, c. WA57.]

The current Government’s levy on banks therefore raised more than the previous Government’s levy.

The previous Government said that their levy was meant to be a one-off, but now Labour is in opposition it is saying, “Let’s make it permanent.” It also wants to make it additional to the permanent bank levy, and it is using the recent scandal, of which Barclays is the first bank to be found guilty publicly, as an excuse to do that. It should be more responsible in opposition than that.

[Bill Esterson]

As the hon. Gentleman will not admit to the figure that the OBR gave for Labour’s levy, I will tell him that it was £3.5 billon. The Government set up the OBR as an independent organisation to give such figures, so I am absolutely amazed that he will not rely on it. That is nearly double the amount raised by the current bank levy in its first year, and significantly more than is predicted for coming years. As we have heard from the shadow Minister, the predicted figure is falling because of the recession that has been created in Downing street.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I believe that the OBR’s figure was for gross receipts, which were not £3.5 billion but £3.45 billion. We need to examine the net yield raised, which was £2.3 billion. That is a lower figure than the £2.5 billion raised under the current Government’s system. I appreciate that the difference between net and gross can be confusing, because not all of us are accountants—I certainly am not. Nevertheless, more cash is coming through the door under the current Government’s arrangements.

The hon. Gentleman’s argument misses a central point, which is that the Opposition want their bank bonus levy to be an additional impost on the banks. My concern is that that would pull more capital out of the banking system. Right now, we need to lend to business and kick-start the economy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bill Esterson]

rose—

[Charlie Elphicke]

I have taken enough interventions. I have been generous in giving way and in dealing in detail with the hon. Gentleman’s points in particular.

The Opposition are saying, it seems, that we should take more money out of the banking system, but that would be irresponsible because it would constrain banks’ ability to lend. The Opposition use Barclays as an excuse to blame everything on greedy traders manipulating the LIBOR interest rate. I would urge caution, however, because I have looked through some of the internal documents floating around, particularly the note of a conversation involving Paul Tucker of the Bank of England. If I may, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall briefly read it to the House by way of scene setting and to demonstrate the Opposition’s mischievousness in seeking to impose this tax.