Local Audit (Public Access to Documents) Bill

Charlie Elphicke Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Friday 25th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) for bringing forward the Bill. It is a very simple Bill, which many of us will find quite refreshing for a Friday. It is really a Bill to repair things, following the passage of the Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014. I thank my hon. Friend for introducing it, because it has given me an opportunity to get a greater feel for the existing legislation. I perhaps should have had a little more awareness of it, given that in a former life I was the chairman of an audit committee in a unitary authority. In that role, I was very aware of what we should do: how we should be open and transparent, and how we should listen to the public when they raise queries about how their money is spent by their elected representatives.

My hon. Friend explained why she has given up a Friday to be in the Chamber. I am giving up my Friday for a very similar reason, which is to try to advance a Bill. Unfortunately, my Bill is No. 5 this afternoon, but I am very pleased to be able to consider and support my hon. Friend’s Bill.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

May I take a moment to congratulate my hon. Friend on his Bill, at No. 5, which is extremely important? He and I are most passionate about it, because we do not like exports of live animals.

[Craig Mackinlay]

I thank my hon. Friend for the support he would have given my Bill, had we reached it, but we have not. Let us therefore consider very carefully the Bill to amend the Local Audit and Accountability Act. Very soon after it became law, the Government recognised that the terminology of “persons interested” should be expanded, and that is what the Bill is trying to achieve.

We would not have got to this point had a council not tried to hide behind the legislation and examined what “persons interested” actually means. Bristol City Council obfuscated on a request by HTV, the western brand of the ITV network, in 2004. It is quite remarkable that the council felt that it was reasonable to spend taxpayers’ money on fighting, under the legislation at the time, what I imagine was a reasonable freedom of information request for transparency about what it was doing. Journalists can be troublesome people—

[Craig Mackinlay]

No, indeed, and I will explain how good some journalists are. Journalists have benefited from FOI legislation, and many public authorities see them as something of a scourge, but I do not agree.

[Charlie Elphicke]

My hon. Friend is being very generous with interventions. First, does he agree that journalism and investigative journalism are important in ensuring that there is full accountability in our democracy? Secondly, does he agree that FOIs are incredibly important in finding out information that large authorities often try to conceal?

[Craig Mackinlay]

I was about to explain the power and importance of a free press to a democratic society. To my mind, FOIs are very important. It is important that journalists and members of the public can shine a light into areas of government—today, we are considering local government in particular—that might otherwise have remained in the dark. Many right hon. and hon. Members, including those present, will have experience of journalists. They often give us a tough time, and so they should. Sometimes it is deserved, though sometimes it is not.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Marcus Jones)]

It is a pleasure to speak in favour of this extremely important private Member’s Bill brought to the House by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton).

The Government believe that the issue is worthy of our support. The clear intention to legislate on this issue goes back to December 2014 in the then Conservative-led coalition Government’s response to the consultation exercise on secondary legislation implementing the new local audit regime. I would like to quote the exact wording used in paragraph 4.11 of that response:

“Government believes that journalists should also be able to inspect accounts and information, in the interests of local people, and therefore intends to legislate at the earliest opportunity to ensure that the definition of ‘persons interested’ (see section 26 of the 2014 Act) is wide enough to enable this”

[Charlie Elphicke]

The Minister is making a typically polished and erudite speech from the Dispatch Box, but there is one thing that troubles me about this measure. What exactly will it cover that is not already covered by measures in the Freedom of Information Act 2000? I can make a freedom of information request about a council’s accounts and obtain the information anyway. Will he help me and other hon. Members to understand how all this works?

[Mr Jones]

As ever, my hon. Friend makes an extremely pertinent point, which I will come on to. The Bill will be an important aid in the fight to improve local transparency and accountability by amending section 26 of the Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014. Journalists, including citizen journalists, will be afforded the same rights as “persons interested”. They will be enabled, for 30 days, to inspect the accounting records of the financial year just ended of any relevant authority and request copies of these documents.

Hon. Members might wonder how such a small change could improve local transparency and accountability, and about the potential associated costs—both points were raised by several hon. Friends. I hope that I can reassure the House on both. On the first, by giving journalists the right to access recent accounting information from a range of local public bodies, the Bill will assist them in their investigations, and publication of their findings could alert local taxpayers to poor spending decisions. As a result, local electors might wish to seek information from the auditor or object to the accounts, thus enabling the auditor to investigate. The measure could therefore increase town hall transparency and accountability.

On the costs, we are not introducing a new right, but extending an existing one to include journalists. Furthermore, the timeframe for these requests is limited to a month in each year, and the body concerned can recover the costs of providing any copies from the requester. The Bill will enable journalists only to examine the documents and seek copies; they will not be able to question the auditor or make objections. Those rights could still only be exercised by local electors, as is the case now.

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[Mr Jones]

I shall make some progress, if I may.

This provision might make local public bodies think more carefully about high levels of expenditure on certain items and how it might look to the general public during periods of financial constraint and reduced public spending.

I should also point out that the 2014 Act includes an explicit power for auditors to refuse to consider vexatious objections, and even if several electors were to ask the same question or make the same objection, the auditor need undertake only one investigation, although a reply to each individual with the outcome might be necessary. The auditor is able to recover any reasonable costs of carrying out this work from the authority concerned. However, if the work results in increased costs, it could be argued that that might cause the authority to consider its future expenditure more carefully.

[Charlie Elphicke]

rose—

[Mr Jones]

I shall give way once more.

[Charlie Elphicke]

The Minister is making a passionate speech and is being so generous in taking interventions. I want to push him a bit harder on one aspect. Under this measure, journalists cannot raise objections or question the auditor. I used to sit on Lambeth Council in the days when it was called “loonyland” and was as bent as a corkscrew. Will the Minister reconsider whether, in such cases, journalists should be able to question the auditor and press him a bit harder, because if that had happened, things might not have come to such a pass in the London Borough of Lambeth as they did under old Red Ted Knight?

[Mr Jones]

I thank my hon. Friend. The overarching objective here is to enable a journalist who might not be an elector in a particular area to uncover that sort of information and bring it to the public’s attention, so that the public can then question the auditor. There are a number of examples of where that has happened to positive effect, with changes having to be made by a local authority as a result.

The overarching objective of external public audit must be the proper use of public money, and if an elector objects and it results in investigations by the auditor, he is doing his job and any resulting delay in completion of the audit or additional cost to the body must be seen as a secondary consideration.