Currency in Scotland after 2014

Debate between Cathy Jamieson and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 12th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair in this important debate, Mrs Riordan. It has been lively at times, and there has been more heat than light on occasions, but none the less it is about trying to ensure that we have the opportunity to discuss the important issue of currency.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) on his superb opening contribution. He laid out clearly and articulately the issues that we have to discuss. We then heard useful contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie), for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), and for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark).

I want to pick up on a couple of points made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran, because she articulated clearly that although many people in Scotland may have an emotional attachment to the idea of Scotland being an independent country, they none the less recognise the importance of the political, social and economic union that has existed over the years, and what an important decision this is for the people of Scotland to make in September. The Scottish National party would sometimes have us believe that everything will stay the same and nothing will change, but at the same time it tries to advance the notion that everything will change. That is not so. Increasingly, people are beginning to see through that false prospectus. A number of hon. Members spelled that out in some detail.

Increasingly, people are beginning to realise that the currency issue is important. For them, it is not just about the macro-economics, because some will, perhaps, not take an interest in that. However, they will take an interest in the money in their pay packets and in their pockets, in their ability to pay their way in the world, and in the impact on their mortgages, credit arrangements, store cards and car loans.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

My hon. Friend is summing up the debate in her usual excellent fashion. Is she struck by the views of young people, who will live with this decision far longer than any of us, particularly the youngsters in Fife who, having heard my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), voted no yesterday?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes a valuable contribution, as always. I recognise that this is of huge importance to young people in Scotland. Obviously, young people aged 16 and 17 are, for the first time, have the vote in an important election. Of course, there are many young people here today in Parliament, including some members of the Scottish Youth Parliament, who are here to lobby on votes for 16-year-olds. I am struck by the intelligent way that young people have approached this debate. When it comes to the independence cause, they have not simply rushed to the barricades, as the SNP may, at one stage, have thought they would. They have thoughtfully debated, considered and put forward the arguments, and will come to their own conclusions, as indeed the rest of the people in Scotland will.

I have to say to the SNP that it is becoming rather tiresome to hear, every time anything is said that is not in agreement with the First Minister or his team, that we are somehow scaremongering. It is right and proper to scrutinise the proposals, including the White Paper and all the policies. [Interruption.] Indeed, the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) is agreeing with me. He is an intelligent and articulate man who takes a close interest in all Treasury, banking and financial services sector issues; I gently say to him that it is rather odd that despite that, he continues to trot out the SNP line the whole time, without giving that degree of scrutiny to the proposals made by his political party.

On that point, Professor John Kay, former economic adviser to the First Minister and professor of economics at the London School of Economics and Political Science, said:

“If I represented the Scottish government in the extensive negotiations required by the creation of an independent state, I would try to secure a monetary union with England, and expect to fail…So Scotland might be driven towards the option of an independent Scottish currency.”

He also said:

“Alex Salmond has said I think rather stupidly that there is no plan B. The trouble with having no plan B is you don’t have any negotiating power if you don’t have a Plan B. So there has to be a Plan B. And Plan B has to be an independent currency.”

We are not getting that honesty in the debate, as far as the people of Scotland are concerned. That is important.

Payday Loan Companies

Debate between Cathy Jamieson and Fiona O'Donnell

Monday 20th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

We have had a very thoughtful and interesting debate this evening, with 17 speakers in total as well as interventions. Most of the speakers seemed to reach a consensus on a way forward, although, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) pointed out, the slight exception might be the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), who has just returned to his place. He tried his best to be consensual, but every now and again he was straining at the seams—[Interruption.] I hear someone say that he cannot help himself.

We heard an excellent speech introducing the report from my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), the Chair of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills. I know that we have had a number of debates on the issue and I wondered whether we would be able to reach consensus on the report this afternoon. That has happened and, as a number of hon. Members have said, this is an important time for such a debate, not least because the FCA is considering the responses to the consultation and will be publishing the rules shortly. It is also debt awareness week. I always feel that we should be concerned by debt awareness week—it is good for us and for the organisations that support people as it focuses our attention, but for many people the harsh reality of debt is something of which they are aware not just for one week of the year but every single day.

We have heard once again this evening examples of the cases with which we are all only too familiar that involve people in our constituencies. The Chair of the Select Committee highlighted a number of issues with advertising. He put it very powerfully when he talked about the suggestion that there could be a one-minute verification to decide whether someone could access such a loan. That highlighted why we need action on advertising.

My hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West also highlighted the impact of television advertising on children and young people aged 12 to 15. I have raised concerns about the issue in a previous debate, and about how advertising normalises payday loans and such borrowing. Someone might not normally consider such an option, but it can be instant and they can do it without thinking. I was also concerned to hear the story from a teacher about children’s awareness of the payday loan sector as one way of getting the things that one wants quickly. A strong case has been made this evening about advertising on television during daytime, early evening and children’s programmes.

My hon. Friend also made an important point in his opening speech about the need for the Advertising Standards Authority to work with the industry on a code of practice. If everyone were to come together to work on the matter and agree on how to take things forward, that would be excellent. If that does not happen, however, and if there is any delay, we should be prepared to ensure that action is taken.

My hon. Friends the Members for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) and for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) raised some of the particular concerns of the city of Glasgow. Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to the new scheme introduced by Glasgow city council whereby pupils going to secondary school for the first time will be given the opportunity to have a credit union account, with £10 put into each account. That is one way of providing financial education while working creatively with the credit union movement in the city.

A number of Members stressed that it is now time for the FCA to act and various evidence was given from the CAB and StepChange about the level of debt. My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) raised concerns that she has pursued for a long time now about the database and access to real-time information. A number of hon. Members talked about the Callcredit announcement and questioned whether it went far enough, as it does not necessarily provide real-time information on how decisions are made. That must be considered in more detail because, essentially, it is no good having information if it is not up to date.

As we have heard, indebtedness is not a new issue. As a former social worker, I well remember spending a lot of time trying to work with families who had to borrow money to pay for the basic necessities of life, without understanding the ongoing costs and how they would pay the money back. Of course, access to online systems and the “press the button, do it now” approach of the payday loan companies make it even easier to borrow now than in the days when the payday lenders of the time went around the doors and persuaded people to take out loans.

We heard some interesting comparisons with work that has been done in the US, Canada and Australia, particularly on roll-overs, and some good questions have been asked. For example, if someone cannot deal with one roll-over debt, why on earth would we want to let them have a second roll-over debt without that being challenged? We have heard concerns about the fact that payday originally meant payday. Of course, now it does not always relate only to people who are in work; many people on benefits and very low fixed incomes are also encouraged to take out these loans.

We have heard concerns about the continuous payment authority and people not understanding what they were getting into. We have heard a call for mainstream banking services to look more at how they support people on low incomes and the important point about financial education being about not only what happens in school but what happens particularly at key points in people’s adult lives, when there is an opportunity to intervene and to work with people to ensure that they understand what they are getting involved in.

A couple of hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), mentioned fraud. We heard from my hon. Friends the Members for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) and for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) about the implications of the planning system and the problems of payday loan companies opening shops in the high streets.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Does my hon. Friend agree that, for her constituents and mine to be protected, we also need action from the Scottish Government, so that they use their powers to protect our constituents?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, but I do not have time to develop it now because I must now come to a conclusion.

I hope that the payday lending industry will understand the strength of feeling in this debate. To be fair, some Government Members said that they had come round to our way of thinking and are now prepared to back some of the actions that we have been calling for. The industry should look at that. The FCA should take note of the issues that have been raised this evening, and it should listen to the calls for action and the suggestion that it has perhaps not gone far enough.

I will finish by congratulating again the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee on the thorough work it has done on the issue and, indeed, all the campaigners who have brought it into the mainstream of opinion and concern, rather allowing it to be seen as something on the margins.

Disabled People

Debate between Cathy Jamieson and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Fiona O’Donnell]

Our position on that has been stated time and again. If we were in government today, we would axe the bedroom tax. Of course our manifesto has not been written at this time, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman and the people who have e-mailed me that I will be pressing the Labour party to make a commitment to axe the bedroom tax. I want to see such a commitment in our manifesto, because it is a grossly unfair tax on people who are often very vulnerable.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Fiona O’Donnell]

I am sorry. Fond as I am of my hon. Friend, I really want to make a bit of progress.

The Government must expect anger in reaction to what they are doing. Let us not forget where this whole process started. We had a proposition to take away the mobility component of DLA from people in residential care. I think that a lot of people who voted for this Government thought it would be a Government who understood the rights of people with disabilities. That was proved absolutely not to be the case—no more so than when the Prime Minister stood at that Dispatch Box and compared someone living in a residential care setting with someone in a hospital. That completely missed the difference between a medical model and a social model of care. The reality is that this Government have been one step behind people with disabilities and the organisations that represent them at every step in the process. That is why they should expect only anger from people out there.

I want to talk a little more about the bedroom tax and the false claim from Government Members—I am sure the Minister will support me in this—that the Government have exempted from the regulations and removed from the impact of the bedroom tax people with disabilities who have adapted their homes. That is not the case. As I understand it, that is the case only when support is also offered. The Minister will no doubt be aware that in Scotland, we are undergoing a change in the way people with disabilities are empowered to buy their own care through direct payments. This means that many people, whom I hope she would have included in the exemptions from the tax, will no longer be exempted, because they are being empowered to buy their care and not receive it from the provider who owns the property in which they live. That seems to me to be an unfair imposition.

Finally, I ask the Minister to respond to the court ruling on the Gorry case, where a child with a severe disability was sharing a room with a sibling. The court ruled that it was discrimination under the terms of the Equality Act 2010 to compel the child to share a room, given the extent of his disability. Will the Government act on this, and most of all, will they give the organisation that is going to have to support people through this incredibly difficult process the information it needs? They should support this motion. Let us see the true extent of this problem so that these people can be supported.

Child Benefit

Debate between Cathy Jamieson and Fiona O'Donnell

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Westminster Hall

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. It has also been a pleasure to listen to passionate and well-thought-out and well-delivered speeches from hon. Members who feel very strongly about this issue. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods), who brought it to Westminster Hall this morning to give us slightly more time to debate it than we had on the Floor of the House. I remember that the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) pointed out then that we had 52 minutes to debate both the clause and the schedule. I heard what he said earlier today and I responded at that time, but I will say again that if we can find ways, across the Chamber, to ensure further scrutiny on Report of both the clause and the very important points in the schedule, that will be very helpful. I would certainly be more than willing to lend our support to see how we can do that.

[Fiona O’Donnell]

As well as welcoming the contributions this morning, would my hon. Friend agree that perhaps the Minister should be concerned that not a single hon. Member has turned up to support his proposals?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I was not going to point out that the Minister seems to be on his own this morning. I am sure that none the less he is very capable of dealing with the questions that have come up and will receive inspiration from various sources in order to do so. However, I will take the opportunity to repeat gently the advice that I tried to give the Minister during the discussion on the Floor of the House: “When you’re in a hole, it’s better to stop digging and find a ladder to get yourself out of that hole.” At that time, we were suggesting that we would be willing to work with the Government to see what could be done to mitigate the worst outcomes of this flawed policy, and that offer still stands.

--- Later in debate ---

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank my hon. Friend for putting that on the record. I am sure that note will duly be taken.

I want to use this opportunity to explain how we have got to the position we are in and what we need to do to resolve the problems. It is worth remembering that when the plans were announced, a single-income household earning just over £43,000 would have lost all the benefit, but a dual-income household on £84,000 would have kept all of it. The 2012 Budget increased the threshold for the withdrawal of child benefit to those earning £50,000 or more from 2013-14. That might have gone some way towards solving the problem for some families—the estimate was that about 750,000 might be in a better position—but it does not get away from the essential point that the principle of universality is fundamental to child benefit, as my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham and other hon. Members have said.

We heard powerful speeches from my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) and others about why the principle is important and why we must do everything we possibly can to defend it. Child benefit is supposed to be about providing families, particularly mothers, with a dependable source of income for the benefit of the children and which a mother knows she will get irrespective of what goes on in the family. As we have heard, research from Child Poverty Action Group and others shows that the money is by and large spent on the day-to-day necessities for children.

I do not want to take us off-track, but the hon. Member for Christchurch mentioned the community charge. He was a junior Minister when it was introduced, as he explained, and I was a young mum. I spent many a wet Saturday campaigning against the introduction of the community charge in Scotland. If anything at that time politicised me and many other women, it was the unfairness of what the Government were doing. I do not say that to be critical of the hon. Gentleman—he has been very helpful this morning—but simply to say that when put in front of Ministers, sometimes issues look like a wonderful wheeze on the basis of the paperwork that the Government have produced, but it is when we look at the impact on people’s lives that such policies begin to fall apart. That is what is happening here.

I want to say a few words about the other issues raised in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham spoke not only about the principles of child benefit and the unworkability of the proposals, but about their legality. She made a powerful statement: these changes are wrong and they should not happen. That is absolutely right and it is the position that we are coming from this morning.

My hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) mentioned workability and the fact that the proposals were far too complex. She critically identified the real impact on real families. A family with three kids could find itself with a bill of £600 at the end of the year. That might not seem to be a big deal when someone is writing it in a policy proposal, but for many families that £600 bill will mean the difference between being able to buy necessary items for their kids and not being able to do so. Being asked to pay such a bill suddenly can throw a household budget out for months.

[Fiona O’Donnell]

I thank my hon. Friend for her generosity in giving way again. Does she agree that we need clarification from the Minister? If a parent who is entitled to child benefit throughout the year receives a bonus from an employer at the end of the tax year that takes them over the threshold, what will happen to the family?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes another useful point. We raised that issue with the Minister on the Floor of the House. Many people, because they get a bonus at work or because they are self-employed, will find at the end of the year that they have earned either more or less than they anticipated. Many self-employed people are not earning huge sums of money, so such issues are critical to them.

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Cathy Jamieson and Fiona O'Donnell

Thursday 19th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. As I have outlined, the problems could be similar if both partners had an income in excess of £50,000. The charge would then apply to the partner with the higher income, and to avoid it being applied twice the partners would presumably have to share information with each other on their incomes and co-ordinate responses in their respective self-assessment forms or HMRC would have to implement some mechanism to link together individuals’ tax records to decide which partner was liable for the charge.

As was mentioned earlier, there would potentially be further difficulties if somebody who did not expect to come within the income bracket for the child benefit charge discovered at the end of the tax year that their income exceeded the limit. It can be quite common for self-employed people to find on preparing their accounts that their income was greater than expected. HMRC would then apply the charge retrospectively, but in order to do so it would need full details of the person’s cohabitation history for the year end. I gently tell the Minister that the potential for disputes is fairly obvious. The living together as husband and wife test is an established feature of the social security system, but we all know from the people who come to our constituency surgeries the problems that emerge. Its extension to the tax system raises a huge range of other issues. Whether a partnership exists will have to be determined on an ongoing basis throughout the year, rather than just at a single point of time, and individuals might not be aware of the need to report changes in their personal circumstances to the tax authorities.

We have already heard that there is a danger that the plan will encourage people to deny the status of their relationship to avoid the child benefit change, which will effectively introduce a couple penalty. That could be a disincentive for a lone parent considering moving in with a higher income person and could create an incentive for couples to split up when one partner has a high income. For people with several children, partnering decisions could have significant financial implications.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Has my hon. Friend, unlike the Government, considered the fact that in families where one parent chooses to stay at home and raise their family, that parent will now be forced into seeking employment? In this market, that will not be feasible.

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes a significant point and that is part of the fairness test, which I do not think has been met. The Centre for Social Justice has been very critical of this aspect of the Government’s plans, which it argues could

“threaten a new wave of family instability and breakdown…which flies in the face of their commitment to ‘shared parenting’.”

Work Capability Assessments

Debate between Cathy Jamieson and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Cathy Jamieson]

The point about fluctuating conditions is well made. That is exactly the problem. Some people with such conditions, in some circumstances, will be able, with the right support, to hold down employment, but others will not be able to do so, perhaps because of the cycle of their condition or because their mental health is affected. I am concerned that the process in question appears to be a tick-box exercise.

One more example from my case work involved a gentleman who lost a leg and badly damaged the other in a childhood accident. Clearly he suffered as a result of that disability. He was awarded zero points. If the system is to have the confidence of the public and the people being assessed, it must be seen as fair. My constituents tell me that there are so many inconsistencies that they feel that they are not treated fairly, that their individual circumstances are not taken into account, and that the procedure is indeed a tick-box exercise.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent contribution to the debate. The information in question is in the public domain, and part of the problem is that that means people facing the process have no confidence in it. It causes such stress, particularly for people with mental health problems, that it has even driven some to take their own lives. How can that be defended?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I hope that my hon. Friend will understand that I take such issues seriously. I am very concerned to hear that she is aware of people being driven to such drastic action as taking their own lives. Going by the correspondence and contact that I have with constituents, I can say only that I know just how difficult it is for people, and that many feel they cannot face the appeal process—particularly those who have suffered from a condition for years and who feel that the process is undignified and that they do not get the right help and support, and who perhaps do not know to whom to turn.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Cathy Jamieson and Fiona O'Donnell

Thursday 26th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

12. What recent representations he has received on his decision to reduce the feed-in tariff for solar PV.

[Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

14. What recent representations he has received on his decision to reduce the feed-in tariff for solar PV.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Cathy Jamieson and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Fiona O'Donnell]

I am delighted to contribute to the debate. I want to speak in particular about the review and possible removal of the mobility component of DLA, or PIP as it has become, and the extension of the qualifying period for PIP from three to six months.

I listened carefully to the Minister during the whole debate. I also attended a debate in Westminster Hall where many of the issues that came up today were raised, yet it appears that we are no further on in finding an answer to our questions. The Minister seemed to think that she weakened the Opposition’s case by saying that we agreed with the need for reform of DLA, but the point Opposition Members and our Front-Bench team have consistently made is that, yes, reform is needed but the Government have got it wrong in the Bill. I often understand the rationale and politics in some of the Government’s decisions and proposals, but I really feel that the proposals in the Bill that the amendments address are actually cruel. I thought long and hard about those words.

Constituents have contacted me from cancer, mental health and disability organisations, including the Disability Benefits Consortium, which represents 50 charities and thousands of people with disabilities and their families. Their mission is clear. The DBC document states that it is to use their combined knowledge, experience and direct contact with disabled individuals, people with long-term conditions and carers to ensure that Government policy reflects and meets the needs of all disabled people. But the Government simply are not listening. When so many people have come together, the Minister should take the time, as others in the Cabinet have done, to pause and reflect. We have seen in the movements to oppose some of the measures a unity and solidarity that has never been seen before. Is it not time to pause?

[Cathy Jamieson]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the organisations she has listed would have a great deal to contribute if there was a proper official review, instead of the behind-the-scenes unofficial review, or whatever it was that the Minister described?

[Fiona O'Donnell]

I agree and I thank my hon. Friend for her contribution. I listened with interest to the speech the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) made about her amendment. [Interruption.] She is thanking me now, but she may not thank me when I have made my comments, although I shall again try to be careful. It is extraordinary that a member of the Government should support legislation and an amendment, yet time and again blatantly admit that she did not know what the Government were proposing. The hon. Lady kept pointing us in the direction of the Minister, saying that she would answer our questions. She was not in the Chamber for the whole of the Minister’s speech, so I have to tell her that the Minister did not answer the questions.