Finance Bill

Cathy Jamieson Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

New clause 13 and new schedule 5 make provision to ensure that individuals who wish to make use of the new pension flexibilities announced by the Government do not face detrimental tax consequences if they take their tax-free lump sum and then defer a decision on how to access the remainder of their pension savings.

On Budget day, the Government announced radical reforms that will enable people with defined contribution pension savings to have more choice and control over their pension wealth from next April. The greater choice and flexibility that these reforms will give pension savers have been widely welcomed. There has been broad consensus that individuals who have been responsible and saved for their future should be trusted to access their pension savings in the way that most suits them.

We announced a consultation on the detail of these longer-term proposals, which has now closed. We will publish a response in the near future, and legislation will be brought forward later this year to implement the necessary changes, but the Government wanted to make sure that people who are approaching retirement now would not miss out. As a first step, we introduced clauses 39 and 40 to ensure that individuals nearing retirement this year can benefit from a wider range of options before next April. We expect that this will enable around an extra 85,000 people to access their pension wealth as a lump sum this tax year. In addition, 400,000 people will have the option of receiving significantly greater withdrawals from their pension savings, but we did not want to stop there.

Usually people lose the advantages of a tax-free lump sum if they do not decide what to do with the rest of their pension savings within six months of taking the lump sum. On 27 March, the Government announced that those who had already taken a tax-free lump sum from their defined contribution pension savings, but had not yet secured their pension, would be given more time to decide what they wished to do with the rest of their retirement savings. We also did not think it would be fair to prevent people from taking their tax-free lump sum now simply because they wished to wait to access their pension savings more flexibly from next April, so the Government promised to introduce new provisions in the Bill to ensure that people do not lose their right to a tax-free lump sum if they would rather use the new flexibility this year or next.

The provisions are technically quite detailed, but their purpose is not. Full pension flexibility for defined contribution savings will be introduced in April 2015, and until that happens we want people to be able to take their tax-free lump sum and to have until October 2015 to make their pension choices without tax consequences. The changes made in new clause 13 and new schedule 5 will enable people to take a tax-free lump sum and to wait until April 2015 to decide how they want to access their pension savings: by transferring the rest of their pension savings to another pension provider to enable them to access them more flexibly; by repaying the lump sum when the scheme that paid it will accept it in order to access the whole of their savings more flexibly; or by receiving the rest of the pension savings as a lump sum under the higher limits that clause 40 provides. Those changes also ensure that people who have the right to receive a tax-free lump sum at an earlier age, or of a larger amount than is normally allowed, can use the new flexibility and keep those rights.

New clause 13 and new schedule 5 help people who have worked hard to save into a pension, enabling them to take some of those savings tax-free now, and to take advantage of the new flexibilities for the rest of their pension savings.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

I understand that the Minister is trying to introduce an element of fairness into the new arrangements while avoiding unintended consequences. Can he give us some assurances about the time scale for the rules being brought in, and tell us whether he has done additional work to ensure that there are no unintended consequences?

[Mr Gauke]

We have been engaged in a consultation process, which closed recently, and have engaged fully with all interested parties more generally on this policy. I will address some of these points when I respond to new clause 9, but we will respond shortly to the consultation, setting out the details of how the policy will be taken forward. This is an important matter, and it is important that we get things right. There are a number of aspects to it, and new clause 9 takes us into some of those aspects that, although perhaps not relevant to the Finance Bill, are of significance none the less. I can assure the House that there will be plenty of opportunities to debate the details, given that legislation on the subject will be introduced, as the hon. Lady knows full well.

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[Cathy Jamieson]

I understand the point about the timing of the guidance, and I will discuss that in my speech. The Pensions Minister has said:

“Face-to-face, the Chancellor used that phrase, and we will honour that, of course. But if face-to-face means individuals sitting down for an hour with someone every-where in the country, that would be very, very expensive. Face-to-face could involve groups, for example; a lot of the conversation’s generic.”

Some people may have concerns about what is being referred to in terms of guidance. Will the Minister give us some further information at this stage?

[Mr Gauke]

The hon. Lady, perfectly understandably, is seeking more information at this point. I do not think I am being in any way unreasonable in saying that we will set out the details of this in the near future. We are working very closely with interested parties, whether the industry or consumer groups, to ensure that we get this right. We have set out the broad principles behind our guidance guarantee, and we believe that we can deliver something that provides the protection that all Members want.

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[Mr Gauke]

I used the word “shortly;” I could have said “in due course,” but I hope that my hon. Friend is more encouraged by “shortly.” He will just have to be a little more patient, but I can assure him that it will not be very long before he will be satisfied on those details.

Let me say a brief word about guidance, which I have touched on already. The Government believe that, as people have greater choice over retirement, they will need the right support and guidance to make the choice that is right for them, so we are working to ensure that everyone approaching retirement with a defined-contribution pension can receive impartial, face-to-face guidance on the choices available to them. However, the guidance guarantee is not a tax rule, so I hope that hon. Members will understand that although it is a very important part of the radical reforms that we are introducing from April 2015, it does not form part of the changes being discussed today.

The Government have already published information on the impact of clauses 39 and 40, as well as on new clause 13 and new schedule 5, and have consulted further on their broader proposals. New clause 9 is therefore unnecessary. Whether that is enough to persuade the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun not to press her case, I somewhat doubt, and no doubt she will put it very reasonably, but I hope that she considers my response reasonable as well. Whether she considers it reasonable or not, that is my response.

The overall purpose of the changes that the Government are making today is to enable people who had recently taken the tax-free lump sum from their defined-contribution pension savings to use the new flexibility, while remaining in broadly the same tax position. I therefore hope that new clause 13 and new schedule 5 will be added to the Bill, and I request that new clause 9 is not pressed to a vote.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I want first to put something on the record. Earlier, the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) suggested that when the Labour Government left office the tax gap was £42 billion, but the most recent HMRC figures show that in 2009-10 it was £32 billion. I think that addresses the point that he raised yesterday with my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood).

To return to issues from today’s debate, as I observed in Committee, the amendment that we moved then and the discussion on it addressed some of the most important clauses in the Bill. The Minister suggested yesterday that I could make the most unreasonable things sound reasonable. I think that today he has done a reasonably good job of putting across the Government’s view. However, I would have to say at the outset that he has not said enough to convince me not to press our amendment—he still has time to say something during the debate—and I will explain why.

As I have said, the reforms provided for in these clauses are very important. Our primary concern in tabling new clause 9 and in pressing it is to ensure that those affected have the information that they need to make an informed choice, because that is very important indeed.

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[Gregg McClymont]

On that point, my hon. Friend, as usual, is making an eloquent, precise case. There is an issue not just around informed choice, but around our ability to predict our own longevity; there are substantial issues. The evidence is that it is very difficult for us to predict our own longevity, both for obvious reasons and in terms of biases inherent in our human nature. Therefore, this is not just about choice—although we think that is important—but about how one makes such decisions on one’s own.

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. My understanding of the research is that, when asked to predict their longevity, people significantly underestimate it and do not always predict long enough into the future, particularly when anticipating their potential care needs or support needs. For understandable reasons, people do not want to think of those things during their earlier years, but increasingly they will have to do so.

I heard the Minister say that some of the issues that have to be dealt with, such as guidance and so on, do not form part of tax law. Of course he is correct on that, but there is an issue about a joined-up approach to government. Already we have concerns—I shall say more if time allows—about how all the Government’s policies on social care and some of the other economic issues that people have to think about will come together. It is important to ensure at every stage that there are no unintended consequences.

As the Minister accepted, we tabled our new clause, as always, in a spirit of being reasonable and sensible. Indeed, I was a wee bit excited when he seemed to suggest that some of the things we might be saying were worthy of further consideration. Of course, my excitement was short-lived, as he then said that he would not accept our new clause.

Quite simply, new clause 9 would require the Treasury, within six months of Royal Assent, to publish and lay before the House any analysis it prepared before the publication of Budget 2014 relating to the impact of the changes made in clauses 39 to 43 and the relevant schedules, and that the information published include any assessment made of the impact of the provisions for independent face-to-face guidance on the Finance Act 2004. That is important, because without it, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) said in an attempt to elicit information, which has not so far been possible, it will be difficult to scrutinise provisions in a Bill that is to come in due course, shortly, when time permits—whichever one of the time scales so beloved of Ministers is utilised. The new clause also asks that we be provided with information on the distributional impact of the changes by income decile, a behavioural analysis and the financial risk assessment. As our new clause and the points I have made show, our concern about some of the reforms extends to the face-to-face guidance that the Government have committed to providing.

We discussed this issue extensively in Committee. I think Labour Members made a number of valid and reasonable points on the potential pitfalls for savers who have money at their disposal—those who, perhaps for the first time in their life, have a significant pot of money and have to make a decision. Lest anyone suggest that our concern is patronising or that we are somehow not trusting people to decide what to do with, essentially, their own money, let me say that it is important to understand that for many people, having significant pots of money at their disposal will be an entirely new experience at a time in their life when, as we have heard, they may not properly have predicted what resources they are going to need or their own longevity. It is therefore a bit disappointing that the Government have not been able to answer our questions. Looking back over the Hansard report of the Committee stage, I was struck by the amount of time we spent dealing with some of these questions and, unfortunately, not getting the answers from the Government. Some of the responses we got from Government Members were, I would say, misunderstandings if not misrepresentations of our own position, which led us to believe that the Government might simply not want to engage with those issues.

To ensure that the Government are held to account, we have set three tests for the pension reforms. The first is the advice test—ensuring that there is robust advice for people who are providing for their retirement and that measures are in place to deal with mis-selling. In Committee, I and others quoted a number of cases brought to us by financial advisers in our local areas and by constituents in which people had been given so-called advice—often, information provided by unregulated people—and had therefore made wrong choices, which cost them significant sums. We do not want that to happen again.

[Gregg McClymont]

On the question of guidance, the Pensions Minister’s comments about Lamborghinis were particularly unfortunate. Does my hon. Friend agree that the biggest danger is not that hard-working, sensible people will blow their own money, but that they will take it as cash and not invest it because they have no confidence in the financial services industry, so their money will not be working for them? Is not that as big a danger, if not a greater danger, than the Lamborghini sort of stuff the Pensions Minister raised?

[Cathy Jamieson]

If I did not know better, I would suspect my hon. Friend of having read my speech. I was just about to come to that very point. The infamous Lamborghini comment might have been made in jest, but that sort of joke is entirely lost on those who have already lost their savings because of poor or insufficient advice. My hon. Friend makes a very valid point indeed about people’s confidence in what they can do with their own resources. To an extent, the Government may have begun to acknowledge the need to expand the range of choices available and ensure that consumers have help to navigate those choices—I think that was the phrase used. That sounds pretty sensible and commendable, but we need to make sure that it actually happens.

The second test we have set is the fairness test—the new system has to be fair to those on low and middle incomes, which means they still should be able to access products that give them the certainty in retirement they want, and the billions we spend in pensions tax relief must not benefit only those at the very top. That is why we have called for restrictions on pensions tax relief for those earning more than £150,000 a year. The third test is the cost test: the Government have to ensure that the policy does not result in extra cost to the state. That point was made earlier, and I think the Minister, to his credit, understands that there is an issue with social care and pensioners having to fall back on means-tested benefits—housing benefit, for example—later in their life if they do not properly or sensibly manage their resources. As yet, however, the Government have not explained how all that will be joined up in policy terms. In our view, if the Government’s pensions reforms fail any of those tests, the negative impact on savers could be considerable.

In Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) talked about protecting people from the “sharks in the market”. That brings us to the vexed question of guidance. Going back to the Chancellor’s no doubt innocent slip, there is a serious point to be made about definitions. When pressed subsequently, the Chancellor said:

“There is a technical distinction between advice and guidance. The budget document exists, I don’t get up and read it out because it contains all the technical details of the Budget and we publish it at the same moment. The speech needs to also communicate in English so people watching it can understand what is meant.”

I understand that, but as I emphasised strongly in Committee, there is a world of difference between advice and guidance in technical terms and in terms of legality. The Government need to deal with that.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

I am listening carefully and trying to understand. Is the hon. Lady suggesting that the Government should be people’s financial adviser? I am not sure that is what the role of Government should be. I thought the reform was about opening up choices and making sure that people realise what steps they can take, not telling them what direction they should go in.

[Cathy Jamieson]

It is important that Government use language consistently and do not inadvertently mislead people about what they are going to get, whether it is guidance, advice or information, given face-to-face, over a telephone or through the internet.

The Red Book states:

“from April 2015, all individuals with defined contribution pension pots are offered free and impartial face-to-face guidance at the point of retirement”.

One might consider that a good and positive measure, but it raises some questions—questions that largely accord with the three tests we have set. First, there is a question about cost: the budget for guidance of just £20 million—£10 million each for 2015-16 and 2016-17—gives rise to some concern, as does its including no provision for this year. According to the tax impact and information note, the measures in the Bill will enable up to 400,000 people to draw down their pensions. I note that the Minister referred earlier to an updated tax impact and information note. Perhaps he can tell us whether he has revised any of those sets of numbers. We need to understand why nothing has been put aside for that free and impartial guidance in this financial year.

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[Gregg McClymont]

Before my hon. Friend moves off the important topic of guidance, I am sure she will agree that the context to this is that the median pension pot is much smaller than many hon. Members imagine: it is well below £30,000 a year. Moving from guidance to advice potentially means that a significant proportion of a person’s pension pot is eaten up by the cost of advice. We should all bear that in mind during the debate.

[Cathy Jamieson]

Once again, my hon. Friend makes an important point and anticipates some of the things I want to mention before bringing my remarks to a close. I understand that in some instances pension pots are relatively small, and we do not want a scenario in which people find that a fairly high percentage of their pension pot must be spent on taking the advice to which he refers.

In that context, I would be particularly interested to know whether the Government have conducted any serious work on how and when savers will invest the money taken out of their pension pots, particularly when those pots are relatively small. Industry analysis from Australia, which has total flexibility at the de-accumulation stage, has found that over half of pension lump sums are spent on homes and cars.

Again, before people get excited and claim that I am somehow suggesting that people should not be in charge of their own money, let me make it clear that there is not necessarily anything wrong with that. For many people it might seem to be the reasonable thing to do. They might wish to pay off a mortgage or debt, buy the car they had not previously been able to afford, or make improvements to their home. Of course they ought to be able to make that choice, but they ought to be able to do so in the knowledge of what they might face in later years.

The potential impact of that change on the wider economy has already been mentioned, particularly in relation to the housing market. For example, what are the implications of people with substantial pension pots deciding to invest in property, particularly in the buy-to-let market? I also think that the Government must look at the impact on household savings ratios, given that the OBR has projected that they will fall from 5% in 2013 to just under 3% at the end of the forecast period. In the midst of any economic recovery that has been driven by consumer savings, any change in the way people choose to invest their savings and the consequent impact on the household savings ratio should be looked at very carefully.

In conclusion, I think that this is a crucial issue for thousands of people across the country. Many people do not think about pensions and long-term savings, and not because they have no interest in them or do not want to save, but because they are trying to manage their expenditure week by week and do not have the opportunity to look at the longer term. Everything we can do to encourage good-quality financial education is important, which is why we must get the guidance and advice absolutely correct. People also need to be confident that the information they get from the industry itself will be tailored and suitable for them.

[Gregg McClymont]

Perhaps this time I am not anticipating what my hon. Friend is about to say, as I think she is bringing her remarks to a close. It strikes me, having listened to the Government on this issue, that the employer is never mentioned. One arm of the Government is promoting workplace employer pensions, but what is the employer’s role in relation to greater flexibility and choice?

[Cathy Jamieson]

Once again, my hon. Friend makes a valid and important point. He is correct that I was about to conclude my remarks, so I will resist the temptation to go into great detail on that issue, other than to say—we raised this in Committee—that in some ways there seems to be no joined-up government here, with pensions sometimes seeming to be at odds with other aspects. Rather than all pulling together in the interests of the consumer, there could be tensions, which I think the Government should address.

As I have said, this is a crucial issue for thousands of people. We need to get it right. I am of course aware that there is further legislation coming down the line. However, given that the Minister indicated that at least some of our requests for information are reasonable and relevant to the matter being discussed, I hope that even at this late stage he will agree to our new clause, which we will want to press when the time comes.