Finance Bill

Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Nigel Mills

Monday 1st July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Catherine McKinnell]

My hon. Friend makes the important point that we are talking about justice. We talk about justice and fairness in relation to developing countries when considering how a disclosure of a tax avoidance scheme, and the information we receive from it, might be used to support developing countries and international justice on that level. However, it is also about justice for UK taxpayers. We must ensure that companies that engage in the sort of tax avoidance activities that so rile members of the public, and should concern every Member of the House, do not have a competitive advantage over companies that do not engage in such activities, which may mean that their business ends up suffering.

That is what we are discussing and the amendments should not be just a step in the right direction. The announcements that came out of Lough Erne and the G8 agreement contained warm words and welcome sentiments, but there is an opportunity for the Government to start walking the walk, not just talking the talk. They must make not only warm statements but legislative changes that will move the issue forward and show the leadership that the UK should be showing. That would give us greater leverage when debating such matters on an international scale.

The Prime Minister rightly put tackling tax avoidance and evasion at the top of the G8 agenda, and Government Members now have the opportunity to demonstrate their commitment to delivering in that area. What came out of the G8 does not have to remain a statement of intent; it could become a reality for the UK today. We believe that our amendments would help the UK to take genuine action towards securing tax transparency and the fairness the world needs in the 21st century. I therefore urge all Members on both sides of the House to back our suggestions for how the Government can put their money where their mouth is on this issue.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to be here to discuss issues that we have already discussed once or twice this year. The Government’s new clauses have rightly been introduced to tackle loss buying and capital allowance avoidance planning. Those are examples of what we can, following the logic of the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), call hard-core tax abuse. The rules have been allowed to get out of date and have been exploited for years, so it is right that they are tackled.

The new clauses demonstrate, however, that the system is far too complex. There are far too many different types of loss and of relief, which create the scope for transactions to try to exploit them. I am not entirely sure why we need trading losses, schedule A losses, D3 losses, non-trade debits and capital losses—and probably a few more I cannot remember off the top of my head. If we moved to a simpler corporation tax system that had only revenue losses and capital losses, we could perhaps tackle avoidance more easily, rather than having to introduce separate anti-avoidance rules for each different kind of loss to try and ensure that they all work. I encourage the Minister for the umpteenth time to try to simplify our corporation tax system, because it would help in tackling these problems.

There is an interesting question on the interaction of legislation with the general anti-abuse rule—if each time we see some aggressive abuse that we think the general anti-abuse rule should stop, we end up producing a specific anti-abuse rule, what does that say about how strong we believe the general anti-abuse rule is? I would personally prefer specific, clear legislation that all taxpayers can read, understand and abide by, rather than relying on some general statement of principle, but there has to come a point when we say, “We think that is abusive and falls foul of the general anti-abuse rule, and that is enough for us to tackle it. We do not need to introduce more complexity to our tax code: instead, we will rely on the rule.” It will be interesting to see, as the years pass, how confident the Government are in that position. For us to be able to evaluate how successful the general anti-abuse rule is, we will probably need to see if the Treasury—or, at least, HMRC—can win some court cases relying on that rule. It may be a few years before we have some returns filed and challenged on that basis.

[Catherine McKinnell]

Does the hon. Gentleman share the concerns of some people that we will never see those court cases, because the panel, depending on how it is selected, may deem most tax behaviour to be so eminently reasonable that it prevents such cases from ever getting to court?

[Nigel Mills]

I doubt that. The general anti-abuse rule came out of some proposals by Graham Aaronson, a leading tax counsel, so it is not fair to suggest that the whole industry is so wedded to egregious tax abuse that they will find any arrangement acceptable. That would make a complete mockery of the whole thing. I do not share that concern, but we have to be careful in how we draft the general anti-abuse rule. Effectively, it comes back to saying, “Although Parliament may have passed legislation in these terms, what we really meant was something slightly different.” Perhaps we did not envisage a complex scheme that works its way into what we actually said, rather than what we really meant.

If we tried to define a general anti-abuse rule too closely, we would be straight back on the horns of the dilemma of what Parliament meant when it passed a certain piece of legislation. I suspect that most people would say that we actually mean what we write in the many hundreds of pages of taxes that we pass each year. We have to allow the courts room to interpret where arrangements are clearly not what we intended when we passed them. The clue is in the word “general” in “general anti-abuse rule”. If we make it too focused, it will not work. We will see in a few years what happens.

Another measure we could use is whether the tax gap comes down. Do we see fewer of these abusive arrangements being entered into? Is that because of the threat of a general anti-abuse rule? Perhaps we could also measure it by the weight of the Finance Bill next year. If we do not need all these anti-avoidance clauses, the Bill will be an inch thinner and the Government will be happy that the general anti-abuse rule is working. I expect I will serve on the Committee next year and I am not optimistic about the Bill being much shorter.

I cannot support new clause 12. I can see why it was drafted, and I might have drafted some amendments in Committee that were equally creative as a way to force an issue into a debate where it does not really fit. I generally agree with the idea that we should require more transparency from our largest corporate taxpayers about how much tax they are paying, but also crucially why they are paying that amount of tax.

Finance Bill

Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Nigel Mills

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Catherine McKinnell]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and her focus on the subject of the debate—that is, these deeply worrying and shambolic VAT changes. We have discussed at some length the new proposals that followed the Government’s concessions and we have had the opportunity to question the Minister on them. I share my hon. Friend’s concern at the failure to provide costings for some of the changes and the lack of consideration of the concern about jobs and growth that our new clauses aim to deal with. Those factors need to be given proper consideration and the Government do not appear to have done their homework.

[Nigel Mills]

New clause 12 would delay the rise to 20% in VAT until there was strong growth in the economy. Can she help us by defining what strong growth would be? What percentage growth might it be? Or would it be growth based on a properly balanced economy rather than a financial services-led boom?