Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Elfyn Llwyd

Monday 31st October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Llwyd]

I have to agree with the hon. Lady, and I would pray in aid another point about the more general civil cases where litigants in person will be 10 times more prevalent in courts than they were previously. That is simply to save money, but actually it will not save money. Instead, it will increase pressure on courts and court time and will be a complete disaster—a dog’s breakfast. It is worth remembering that 40% of magistrates and county courts have been closed and that the Ministry of Justice was looking for a 40% decrease in its first budget—that is rather convenient. However, I have no doubt that she is right, and it grieves me that money comes before the welfare of young children. We are talking about knife crime, juveniles going on the wrong side of the law and so on, and the Bill will do nothing to address that. Instead, I fear that it will make matters even worse, although I hope that I am wrong.

[Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Llwyd]

I will give way, but briefly, because other Members wish to speak.

[Catherine McKinnell]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case about the impact that the Bill will have not just on women suffering domestic violence, but on children in that situation. Does he agree that there is a significant risk not just that it will not save money for the MOJ, but that it will result in increasing costs across Departments, for social services as a whole and for the future of our society, leaving children in those difficult situations?

[Mr Llwyd]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. When we take into account housing costs, benefits and all kinds of things, we see that it will be a huge amount of money at the end of the day.