Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Brandon Lewis

Thursday 25th February 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Brandon Lewis]

We have had a long debate and some interesting contributions. It has been interesting to hear Opposition Members complain that the rules they put in place to protect workers are not working. That is one of the reasons why there is a package of options. I wonder whether they fully understand how the high street works, let alone whether they have actually fully read the new clause and schedule and understand how they knit together. The extra protections improve accessibility and are an integral part of the package. They would not be needed if we were not going forward. However, I appreciate Opposition Members’ recognition that the way things were done under Labour simply was not good enough.

In some instances, hon. Members, and particularly the hon. Member for Sefton Central, were missing the point. We are looking at devolving power to local areas. Just to correct him, I do not know how the Labour party works but certainly in Conservative councils, I would not think we have many leaders who believe that they are the sole decision maker. They work on a democratic basis where all councillors have their say, but that might be why we also have Labour councils asking for this power. As well as Manchester and Nottingham, more than 150 council leaders are calling for this devolved power. As I have said in other places around this House when discussing other legislation, I trust local people to make the right decisions for their areas, and I hope that Labour Members would as well.

[Catherine McKinnell]

It is incredibly frustrating to listen to the Minister talk about empowering local communities when he knows full well that he is putting local authorities up and down the country in an invidious position over central Government funding cuts. It is therefore no surprise that local authorities will do anything to try to mitigate the impact on their communities, but it is no excuse for the change in this legislation that the Government are ramming through.

[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Lady tempts me to digress, but I will not go too far and test the Chair’s patience. However, I gently say to her that putting aside the fact that this is about local authorities making decisions about what is good for their local community, she might want to bear in mind, on her point about local government funding, that over the past few years, local authorities have managed to increase their reserves from about £13 billion to more than £22 billion. The revenue support grant that she referred to is actually a very small part of the income that local authorities get from a whole range of different areas.

I also find it slightly ironic that Labour Members, on listening to some of the things that we say about devolution, talk about closing post offices. Having seen how many post offices Labour closed, that is a slightly odd thing to hear.

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[Brandon Lewis]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, which highlights the difference as regards our genuine belief in devolving power and delivering on that, whether it is through the Localism Act 2011, the Housing and Planning Bill or indeed, through this Bill.

To put the Committee’s mind at rest, I do not intend to accept the very tempting offer from Labour Members and run through a whole list of all the fabulous tourism offers around Great Yarmouth. I just encourage them to come and see for themselves, and hopefully, after the Bill gets Royal Assent, they will be able to do some shopping and spend their money there as well. I will also not break into song and sing “Mamma Mia” to reflect what my mother would think about the Bill—I would not dare to put the Committee through that, but I am sure my mother will be looking forward to shopping for longer on a Sunday.

The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North was absolutely right in one thing she said at least: the rules on which we are discussing devolving a new power are more than 20 years old. They predate the internet, and there is now a whole different world of retail. The hon. Member for Sefton Central talked in his opening remarks about devolution and other Members have talked particularly about convenience stores, which I value. I met some in my constituency just a few weeks ago, and some of them were talking about how this could actually increase their trade, because people get used to being able to shop for longer through the day. That mirrors what we have seen elsewhere—those convenience stores have managed to have growth of about 5% over the last year—and it is worth noting that the number of convenience stores in Scotland, where there is that free trade opportunity, is higher per head than it is here in England. That is a really good example from very close to home of how convenience stores can thrive.

Hon. Members have made a few comments today about people’s desire for their religious views to be recognised and that even those who are not religious might wish to keep Sunday special. I remind hon. Members, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe has rightly said a few times, that this is not compulsory. People do not have to shop on a Sunday. What this does is give an opportunity to people who want to take advantage of the wider flexibilities to be able to do so. That can play quite an important part in enhancing family life and, as I said, in creating more jobs for young people, women and others who want to take advantage of companies that decide that Sunday trading is in their interest and their customers’ interest.

[Catherine McKinnell]

rose—

[Brandon Lewis]

I will just make a bit more progress. The point has been made a few times about larger businesses and the differentials that we could see as local authorities make decisions locally around the country. It is right, as hon. Members have said, that local authorities could make different decisions on whether they take and use the powers, the format, how long they extend them for or how they choose to zone in their area. Council leaders have given me very different examples of what they want to do, and I encourage that, because it recognises the differences across the country for local communities.

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[Catherine McKinnell]

The Minister appears to have dispensed with the Opposition queries, but he has skimmed over my question about the family-friendly test. Will he comment, or has it gone the way of hugging huskies?

[Brandon Lewis]

If the hon. Lady looks at Hansard this evening, she will find that I have been responding to a lot of the queries of Opposition Members, specifically hers. Only a few seconds ago I said specifically on the family-friendly test that the Bill will give families more flexibility and opportunity on how they choose to spend their time on a Sunday. It will be a big advantage for families. I am sure that if it were not, we would have had hon. Members from Scotland jumping up to explain how Sunday trading has ruined family life in Scotland, a religious and family-focused country. I love spending time there and I have not heard that. I suspect that we will find that Scotland is a very good place to bring up a family, despite the fact that Scottish communities have freedom on Sunday trading. We want to give the opportunity to enjoy that same freedom to communities in this country.

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[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Gentleman is stretching it a little far to make a joke. If he looks back at Prime Minister’s questions, he will find that, as I outlined, the Prime Minister made the point that it was right to review Sunday trading laws in light of the fact that the current rules date from before the internet existed. I was very clear about that.

The change will also ensure that we get a bigger opportunity to drive competition and productivity, reducing prices and improving convenience for consumers. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman does not appreciate that we have a Prime Minister who cares about our economy and local communities having not only power, but local choice. We want to support our towns and cities to create jobs and have greater prosperity and to enable them to compete for lucrative international tourism, too. Larger shops opening for longer can benefit smaller shops, food establishments and tourism attractions by bringing footfall in. The larger shops draw footfall into our town centres and having them open is good for our town centres.

[Catherine McKinnell]

The Minister is making an eloquent speech, but it appears to be completely evidence-free. The evidence available to us appears to say the absolute opposite to him. Will he please provide some evidence base for what he is saying?

[Brandon Lewis]

I outlined the logic behind what we are doing earlier today. The hon. Lady can also have a look at the Government response to the consultation, which is clear on these matters. We are determined to ensure that we deliver the amendments, which provide choice for local areas on what suits their local preferences and their local economic conditions, choice for retailers to open at times that better suit the needs of their customers and choice for consumers on where and when to shop for a wider range of goods and services.

The strengthened rights for shop workers mean that the benefits of the proposals can be delivered while protecting those shop workers who do not want to work at all on a Sunday or who do not want to work longer hours on a Sunday. They deliver flexibility at a local level, which is crucial in ensuring that local communities and local economies can play to their local strengths. Whether it is by capitalising on tourist spend or catering for shoppers later in the day, the amendments will help those local economies, and by extension our UK economy, to grow. That is why the amendments represent an essential modernisation of a piece of law that in reality is no longer fit for purpose in our modern consumer world.

Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Brandon Lewis

Thursday 25th February 2016 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)]

It is a pleasure to make my first outing under your chairmanship, Ms Buck, even just for these last few minutes before we move on to the afternoon sitting.

In the 20 years since the Sunday Trading Act 1994 was passed, the nature of retail has changed. For example, internet retailers now operate 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and the working patterns of families have changed, so many now want greater flexibility about when they shop. New clause 21 devolves the power to extend Sunday trading hours to local authorities. That includes unitary authorities and district councils that are not unitary authorities across England and Wales, the elected Mayor of London and future mayors resulting from future devolution deals, including the Mayor of Greater Manchester.

Let me be clear. The Government will not dictate to local leaders how they should use the power. We are putting decision-making powers where they should be: in the hands of local leaders. Councils will be able to decide for themselves whether it is effective and appropriate to extend Sunday trading hours in their area, reflecting the needs of local businesses and communities and the shopping habits and economic conditions of the locality.

We have seen the rise of the internet, particularly in the past few years. As the Minister for high streets in the previous Parliament, I know from talking to retailers just how fast online retail is moving. In the UK, we already have the largest online market in Europe, and online sales have continued to increase, reaching 15% of total retail sales in 2015. Things are moving very quickly.

Local leaders will be able to use the consent notice to zone their local area, if they wish. That enables them, for example, to support local traders and independent shops in a focused way in and around high streets and market squares, helping them to compete with online retailers. Retailers in the west end and Knightsbridge— [Laughter.] While Members on the Opposition Benches laugh, I think they should listen to the figures, so that they realise just how important this matter is. Those retailers estimate that opening for just two extra hours on a Sunday would bring economic benefits in the region of between £190 million and £290 million annually. Those retailers also estimate that up to 2,160 full-time equivalent jobs would be created. Just think about what that could mean right across the country, not least in areas that have the opportunity to see real benefit, particularly given that Sunday is now the biggest online retailing day of the week. Devolving the powers will provide greater flexibility for businesses and shop workers and reduce prices for consumers. It will drive competition and productivity, creating jobs and boosting local economies.

Some shop workers are keen to have the opportunity to work longer hours on a Sunday. For them, the weekend represents the best or, in some cases, only time they can work. For example, it may be easier for them to access childcare or they may be students looking for extra or more part-time work.

Members will no doubt know that we have heard from many respondents with concerns that shop workers could be pressured to work on Sundays or to work more hours on a Sunday than they may want to, at the expense of important time with the family, for caring responsibilities or for religious observance. I am clear and up front that we recognise the need for effective protections for shop workers who do not want to work on Sundays or who do not want to work longer hours on Sundays. That is why new clause 21 introduces new schedule 1, which delivers significant strengthening of the rights for shop workers in England, Wales and Scotland by amending the Employment Rights Act 1996 and the Employment Act 2002. The new schedule reduces the notice period for shop workers to opt out of Sunday working altogether from three months to one month in large shops. We recognise that there is a bigger challenge for small shops, so they will need longer to find alternative staffing. The new schedule creates a new right for shop workers to opt out of working more than their normal Sunday working hours subject to one month’s notice for large shops and three months’ notice for small shops.

[Catherine McKinnell]

rose—

[Mary Creagh]

rose—

[Brandon Lewis]

I will give way in one second; I just want to finish the last point. The new schedule updates the obligation on employers to notify shop workers of their rights by specifying in regulations the form and content of the explanatory notice that employers must provide to existing and new shop workers. It also strengthens the consequences for failure to comply in some important ways.

[Catherine McKinnell]

The Minister talks about rights for shop workers, but surely he must understand that rights are only as good as the ability to use and enforce them. I could make many points, and I will when I make my speech, but one point I must make is that the Government have made it increasingly difficult for any employee to enforce their rights at work, so much of what he is saying is meaningless.

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[Catherine McKinnell]

What work have the Government undertaken to assess how many shop workers are currently able to exercise their existing rights to exempt themselves from Sunday working in order to inform these measures which, supposedly, protect employees who do not want to work on Sundays?

[Brandon Lewis]

All shop workers have that right, but my view is very much that we need to ensure that it is more transparent and that they have a better understanding. To exercise rights, people need to know what they are.

New schedule 1 provides powers to make regulations about the meaning of “normal Sunday working hours” and the form and content of explanatory notices. Amendment 76 will enable those powers to come into force on Royal Assent and allow the Government to pass the regulations, but naturally we intend the regulations themselves to come into force with the provisions on Sunday trading hours and the improvements to shop workers’ rights. We intend to define a shop worker’s “normal Sunday working hours” as an average over a number of Sundays, so that the phrase means essentially what it says but is specific enough that both the shop worker and the employer know where they stand. We will publish draft regulations and invite views from stakeholders to take into account issues such as seasonal work.

On the hon. Lady’s very fair point, our intention on the form and content of explanatory notices to shop workers is that as well as being updated, they will be in clearer English than the text in the existing legislation so that shop workers can clearly understand their rights and will be able to exercise them. We also intend to include pointers to sources of further information and advice, such as the ACAS helpline, guidance on gov.uk or, indeed, the relevant union. The changes amount to substantial improvements to shop workers’ rights.

[Catherine McKinnell]

In explaining the purpose of the clause, the Minister is shining a light on the big problem that the provisions will present to many shop workers in trying to remedy the situation in advance. He must recognise, though, that many shop workers do not want to enter into a dispute with their employer over this issue. Perhaps the Government should think again about whether they should introduce changes that will put both shop workers and their employers into a difficult position.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Brandon Lewis

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Catherine McKinnell]

Will the Minister give way?

[Brandon Lewis]

I will not give way at this stage, because we are short of time and I want to respond to the points that have been raised by those who have spoken.

The hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale spoke about amendments 107 and 108. I trust that the housing association tenants in his constituency who want to buy their own homes will note his comments, and will remember them when they are home owners at the next general election.