Criminal Finances Bill (First sitting)

Carolyn Harris Excerpts

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Byron Davies]

Q My question is simply this, with respect to unexplained wealth orders and politically exposed persons. It is perhaps more to you, Mr Harman, than anyone. The measures reflect the concerns about those involved in corruption overseas and laundering of the proceeds of crime. How operationally viable do you think those are from an investigation point of view, particularly with some of the more difficult countries that we have to deal with?

Detective Superintendent Harman: I think there will be challenges, as you have highlighted. The unexplained wealth orders will help us to deal with the higher end, if I can call it that, of terrorist financing, where there are perhaps sham companies or charities being exploited and it is far more complicated. Such a power will ensure that people account for the money that they have. It will be challenging. To be honest with you, it will be a small part of our casework in the terrorism financing context, but it will be helpful.

Donald Toon: From our perspective—we run the international corruption unit for the UK—we see this as a hugely valuable step forward. We have a real problem at the moment in a number of jurisdictions where we cannot get usable evidence yet we have assets that are of deeply questionable probity. We do not expect the numbers to be huge, because the cases are large and complex, but we do think this is a very useful step.

Mick Beattie: We support that. Most of our international investigations go through the NCA anyway, so we agree with that.

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

Q I have one observation and one concern. The observation is that one of my colleagues mentioned that you would need to come back for more money, and another colleague said you would be self-funding. That means you will have to bring in far more than you cost to run, so just be aware of that.

I am really concerned that you are not concerned about money laundering in the gambling industry. You seem to have little or no evidence that that is an issue. I am very concerned that high street bookies are able to launder, and if they are not actually reporting any excessive or unusual activity, that is a great concern.

Donald Toon: Can I correct the position? The specific question I was asked was about the application of these powers to online gambling. Do we see the gambling industry as a potential risk for money laundering? Yes. Traditionally, it has been an area where money laundering has been relatively straightforward, in the sense of being able to demonstrate the source of funds. Actually, we have seen quite a lot of improvement in the way the gambling industry has targeted that, particularly through the casino structure. We work with the industry and the main industry bodies, and we work very closely with the Gambling Commission on the regulation of that, and we do see some very good reporting. Is it still an abused area? Yes. It is an ongoing risk; we do seek to target that risk. It was a specific question I was responding to.

[Carolyn Harris]

Q Is there a benchmark to which you would expect bookmakers to report high or excessive use in a high street bookmakers?

Donald Toon: We would expect them to apply an objective test for suspicion and report. That is the point where we work with the Gambling Commission on making sure that that test is right.

[Carolyn Harris]

Q But you leave it them to decide at what level they report?

Donald Toon: It is an important point. It is absolutely the decision of any part of the regulated sector, including gambling operators. It is their decision when they should report. Should they fail to report when they should have done so, there are consequences. If they could be shown to be facilitating money laundering when we had gone into a major investigation and tracked back, then there would be potential consequences. Either we would seek to take action ourselves, or we would refer them—it does not matter which part of the regulated sector we are talking about—to their supervising regulator for action.

[Carolyn Harris]

Q Would it be helpful if it was a mandatory reporting level? For excessive use of a fixed odds betting terminal, for example, if we set a level and said, “Anything in excess of £1,000 a day,” from someone who would not normally spend that money?

Donald Toon: Frankly, no, I do not think it would. Every time you set a level, all you do is encourage people to create a level of complexity that always keeps below the level.

Mick Beattie: It is about the suspicion. It is all relevant to that individual, that money laundering reporting officer, their level of suspicion and the circumstances or action that determines that suspicion.

[The Chair]

This will have to be the last question. You only have two minutes.