Saudi Arabia

Debate between Caroline Lucas and Tobias Ellwood

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

I am pleased to repeat our concern about Ali al-Nimr and the other youths who were convicted when they were juveniles. We have received reassurances from the Foreign Affairs Minister, Adel al-Jubeir, and from the Saudi Arabian ambassador in London that they will not face execution.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Does the Minister recognise that huge numbers of people across the country will be genuinely shocked by his inability to say that he condemns the actions of Saudi Arabia over those executions? Will he now strengthen his language on that matter? Has his Department assessed the legal opinion published last month by Matrix Chambers which concluded that the Government have misdirected themselves in law and in fact in continuing to grant authorisations for the transfer of weapons to Saudi Arabia that are capable of being used in the conflict in Yemen?

[Mr Ellwood]

We have one of the most vigorous export licensing schemes in the world. Indeed, it was set up by the previous Government. If there are any genuine examples of the misuse of weapons systems that have been sold to any country, the process is in place to ensure that they are examined. If such examples are brought forward, we will certainly look at them.

Shaker Aamer

Debate between Caroline Lucas and Tobias Ellwood

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Lucas]

The Minister is making much of concerns about what will happen to Shaker or anyone else after their release. The United Kingdom is one of the safest places for such people to return to. We have one of the safest structures to deal with any risk that might exist. This simply does not add up: I do not see what the obstacles are.

[Mr Ellwood]

Let us take a step back from this particular case. Security questions must be asked, in the case of any inmate, about what will happen once the process has taken place. As I have said, the judicial process that is being conducted is very complex, and involves a number of Departments.

[Caroline Lucas]

Surely the Minister agrees that it would be safer for Shaker to return to the United Kingdom than to go to Saudi Arabia, for example—safer for all of us, indeed.

[Mr Ellwood]

The point has been made time and again about the manner in which many of the detainees ended up in Guantanamo Bay, and about the creation of Camp Delta in the first place. I make no comment on this particular case because it would be wrong for me to do so, but we need to ensure that every person who is processed will not be a danger to the United States or to any other country. It is a complex process, and I must make it very clear that I make no judgment on this particular case. I am about to give some numbers and a timetable, and details of the frequency with which detainees are being processed.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Caroline Lucas and Tobias Ellwood

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Lucas]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady. We are talking about genuine equality. That means legal equality, as well as symbolic or any other kind of equality.

That tribunal was a landmark case. Interestingly, the Government lost the case, so one could argue that agreeing to my amendment 49 might save them money, as they would not need to pay out in future legal cases that might go against them. If the law remains as it is for civil partners and that inequality is extended to those in same-sex marriages, it could be several decades before gay couples achieve real equality in pension provision. I see no justification for continuing to permit discrimination in this area. I hope very much that colleagues will support amendment 49 and join me in overturning an anomalous and discriminatory provision.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to participate in this important debate on this group of amendments.

I have been quite conflicted over this entire subject. I am a godfather to a lovely little boy who has been adopted. His parents are in a partnership and they are both gay. I see myself very much as a progressive Conservative, and I certainly recognise that society’s attitudes have advanced, which is reflected in the fact that we are debating the amendments in such detail today. Of course we do not send children up chimneys any more, or allow only privileged landowners to vote, and we got rid of slavery long ago.

Justice and Security Bill [Lords]

Debate between Caroline Lucas and Tobias Ellwood

Monday 4th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Lucas]

That is a good question. We like to hold our justice system up as an example to the world, yet if we go down this route, we will fundamentally undermine some of the principles of British justice that we have rightly been proud of for many years, and people around the world will look on with genuine shock.

Last week, more than 700 figures from the legal profession, including 40 QCs, had a letter published in the Daily Mail—not a newspaper that I have often quoted in the Chamber—stating that the proposals in the Bill to allow a huge extension of court hearings behind closed doors would

“erode core principles of our civil justice system”.

They argued that if the Government’s changes were allowed to go ahead, they would

“fatally undermine the court room as an independent and objective forum in which allegations of wrongdoing can be fairly tested and where the Government can be transparently held to account.”

The proposals, they concluded, were “dangerous and unnecessary”.

The Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Justice also has serious concerns about the Bill’s provisions relating to closed material procedures in certain civil proceedings, and the Scottish Government have concluded that they are

“unable to support any extension—under any circumstances—of the Bill into devolved areas.”

[Mr Ellwood]

I understand the thrust of the hon. Lady’s argument and the position that her party takes, but does she recognise that the House’s first obligation is the protection of the nation? One way in which we thwart many potential attacks against this nation is through our work with intelligence services from other countries. If we go down the route that she suggests, that relationship will break down. No other country will trust us with information if it is then exposed in court, which will make our country even more vulnerable to attack.

[Caroline Lucas]

Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that, right now, other countries are not sharing their information with us because of the current situation?

[Mr Ellwood]

Yes, that is exactly what happened.

[Caroline Lucas]

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. No one is suggesting that PII will not still be available so that we can have measures such as redactions.

Energy Efficiency

Debate between Caroline Lucas and Tobias Ellwood

Wednesday 30th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

I do not disagree. My point is about the efficiency and security of supply, and not until very late in Labour’s tenure did they work out, “My gosh, we need to get some interconnectors here that actually work, so that we aren’t reliant on just one.” That is what led to the danger of our running out of gas supplies. I understand that the Government are now looking at security of supply, and at long-term contracts that will negate the problems that we faced last winter, when we came very close to some of the lights being switched off. Carbon capture and storage is important, and I am still upset that we did not have a chance to amend that Bill. We tabled amendments to include gas as well as coal.

The previous Government oversaw the demise of another area, our fleet of nuclear power stations—again, until our energy supply was threatened. It took 20 years to get a spark out of Dungeness; we cannot build those things overnight. Therefore, if we are to plan for the future, we cannot live in denial: we cannot live without nuclear power. My hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) spoke passionately about the importance of nuclear power, and although it is an asset that none of us likes, we are forced into that position simply because of the absence of other sources of power.

[Caroline Lucas]

The hon. Gentleman makes a statement in favour of nuclear power, but it is not based on the facts. Climate change scientists tell us that we need to get our emissions down within the next 10 years if we are to have any chance of avoiding the worst of climate change. The hon. Gentleman just mentioned the time that it takes to get nuclear generation up and running, and that means that we are now outside the critical investment time frame, and there is a real danger that if we put the money into nuclear power we will not put it into energy efficiency, renewable energies or decentralised energy, all of which have a much better chance than nuclear power has of reducing our emissions.

[Mr Ellwood]

I actually agree with the hon. Lady, whom I very much welcome to the Chamber. She will add an awful lot to these, and indeed other, debates. The Labour Government left nuclear power very late, but what she said does not mean that we should not build nuclear power stations. I guess that she is not in favour of nuclear power, and I am reluctant, too, but she might agree that we should invest in and study nuclear fusion, rather than nuclear fission, because nuclear fusion is the utopia that we have been looking for. Everyone says, “Oh, it will happen 25 years from now,” but they were saying that 25 years ago. If we fully grasped that technology, we would not need the nasty side of nuclear fission, which leaves all the radioactive mess for future generations. Nuclear fusion is very much the way forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ellwood]

That—that is—[Laughter.] That is a moot point, but it is on the record.

I am trying to get on to the issue of nuclear fusion versus nuclear fission, and I am sure that the Secretary of State would agree with the position on that.

[Caroline Lucas]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Ellwood]

I cannot resist.

[Caroline Lucas]

I cannot resist either. I have two points to make. First, Dungeness is built on a floodplain; it is a bit short-sighted to put lots of nuclear power in the middle of a floodplain, given climate change.

Secondly, if we are still to hold out this great hope that some new nuclear technology will come along, that, again, will mean that resources and research will go into that instead of into the tried and tested technologies that we know will work. We have been talking about energy efficiency. If we rolled out a free programme of energy efficiency to every household in the country, that would create hundreds of thousands of jobs and get us out of recession. It would also get our emissions down much more quickly and cheaply than going down the nuclear route.

[Mr Ellwood]

The hon. Lady is new to the House and I do not wish to be disparaging about what she has just said. But she seems to be saying that the issue is either/or, black or white. I am saying that it is not like that, and that we must invest extra research on an international basis. Work is being done, including in the United States, but it is not enough.

The hon. Lady is absolutely right that we must push for more efficiencies—in fact, that is what half today’s debate is about. How can the home be made more efficient? How can we reduce our emissions and the amount of energy that we use? All those things are important. Is she suggesting that we should park any further advances or research on the idea of nuclear fusion? That is absolutely wrong.

[Caroline Lucas]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; I appreciate that he is trying to make progress.

I am saying, very realistically, that there is a finite pot of money, which is even smaller as a result of the cuts that the hon. Gentleman’s Government are about to make. The idea that that money can be put everywhere at the same time comes from cloud cuckoo land. We need to decide where the money can be best and most effectively spent; scattering it around the place is not the answer. If we were to implement a major programme of energy efficiency, including renewable and decentralised energy, that would be tried and tested and offer a much better bang for the buck than investing in the chance that we might some day come across a nuclear technology that is safer than what we have now.

[Mr Ellwood]

On that I stop agreeing with the hon. Lady. We are not talking about a technology that may or may not work. We know that it can work; it is a matter of harnessing it. Experiments have already been done. To park the issue, or put it on the back burner—that is probably the wrong phrase—would be wrong. If we can harness the technology we can roll it out, not only in Britain but in other countries, particularly developing countries that are thinking of using nuclear fission. We could say to Iran, “Here is nuclear fusion.” An atomic bomb cannot be made out of a nuclear fusion reactor. This therefore makes sense in the long term, and generations will thank us for it. Given the position we are in, I am afraid that we cannot survive over the next 20 years without investing, reluctantly though it will be, in nuclear power. I think that there is agreement on that in all parts of the House.

Let me spend a few moments explaining why nuclear fusion is so important and useful. It is the fusion of hydrogen atoms to form helium, and an awful lot of energy. It is a safe process whereby there are no nasty by-products. Of course, hydrogen is found in water, so fusion power is a potentially limitless source of energy. In fact, it is recognised that in 100 years’ time nuclear fission will be in the past, and everything will be powered by nuclear fusion. That may sound scatty, too advanced or too romantic, but it is the case. However, I am afraid that we will slow down that harnessing of power unless we are able to ensure that we join with other countries to guarantee that money is not wasted or taken away to be spent on other important related products, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) passionately said.

The main focus of my speech is not nuclear fusion or carbon capture and storage, but the subject of my intervention at the beginning of the debate. It is about a very simple way of reducing carbon emissions, saving the Government money, and creating a feel-good factor—that is, moving our clocks one hour forward.