European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Caroline Flint and Anna Soubry

Wednesday 13th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Flint]

Since the referendum, the debate has often been polarised in this place and outside it between hard-line Brexiteers who feel that we can walk away without a deal and walk off a cliff edge, and hard-line remainers who do not accept the result of the referendum and want to find whatever way possible to stay in the EU. That is why I am not supporting Lords amendment 51. The essential choice for Parliament is whether we accept the outcome of the referendum and the article 50 process and agree that the UK leaves the European Union in March 2019, or whether we seek to subvert that process. Perhaps the Norway option—the European economic area—suits that purpose.

The EEA agreement helped three small countries that could not persuade their people to adopt EU membership and that accepted having no say in return for single market membership. They accepted the role of rule takers, not rule makers, with second-class membership of the European Union. Much has been said about Michel Barnier saying this morning that he will give us membership of the EEA plus the customs union. Of course he would—he would bite off the Prime Minister’s hand for that deal, because apart from leaving without any deal, it is the worst deal for the United Kingdom.

[Anna Soubry]

Shame!

[Caroline Flint]

The right hon. Lady says, “Shame!” I am afraid to say that it is that sort of contribution to this debate that is so unhelpful and divisive, because we have to reach consensus on the way ahead. I believe that we have to be as close as possible to the single market and that there should be a customs arrangement. Importantly, however, I recognise that there is an issue of immigration, which has been overlooked for at least 15 years, since we first let in the A8 countries. I am afraid that the right hon. Lady does not reflect that on behalf of her constituents.

--- Later in debate ---

[Caroline Flint]

I thank my hon. Friend. There will be a point, when we leave the European Union, at which Opposition Members will have to work out what our policies are for the challenges ahead for our country, and I know that on those areas we will come together.

There is no precedent for a country the size of the UK leaving the European Union. It is new ground and demands a new relationship, but that should not be a replication of Norway’s. The terms of EEA membership clearly do not allow the sort of changes to freedom of movement that some of my right hon. and hon. Friends have suggested. The only provision affecting migration is the Liechtenstein solution, which is a temporary brake on immigration in the event of an economic crisis. That was a provision for a country with a population half the size of that of my constituency of Don Valley. This is not an adequate response to the public concern about the lack of control the UK has had over EU migration since 2004.

I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Chuka Umunna) that many people from the black and minority ethnic community voted leave and are also concerned about free movement. To move forward, we cannot just cobble together ideas as in the EEA amendment. There has to be an end to freedom of movement, just as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) has suggested, and after that we can decide what sort of migration we want in the future.

Those of my constituents who voted leave have been insulted, day in and day out, by comments made in the place and outside. They are not against all migration, but they want a sense that we can turn the tap on and off when we choose to do so. They also want us to answer the questions: “Why hasn’t Britain got the workforce it needs, why has social mobility stopped, why do we train fewer doctors than Holland or Ireland, and why are these jobs dominated by those in the middle and upper classes so we don’t get a look in?”

I will be voting for the Labour amendment, because although it is not perfect, it seeks to delete the EEA option; and if that is lost, I will vote against Lords amendment 51. I urge the House to reject that amendment and to begin to face up to the policy challenges of life after Brexit.

[Anna Soubry]

I am sorry, Mr Speaker, because I know it is a courtesy to say so, but it is not a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint). I have admired her for many years, but I found that one of the saddest speeches I have ever heard. [Interruption.]

[Anna Soubry]

As you will remember, Mr Speaker, I said how much I respect the right hon. Lady for so much of her work, but on this I profoundly disagree with her.

I will be voting for the very good amendment—Lords amendment 51—written and beautifully advocated by the noble Lord Kerr. I urge hon. Members to read it, because I agree with everything it says about the value of a customs union. In due course, the Bill about a customs arrangement will come back to the House. I ask British businesses to write to their local MP to explain why it is so important, just as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey) said that one of his businesses had explained to him in good, simple, plain terms why having a customs arrangement is so important to his constituents, their jobs and the future of their children and grandchildren.

I will be voting for the EEA amendment because, as I have said many times in this place, I believe in the value of the single market. I say to the right hon. Member for Don Valley that I am appalled that she, as a member of the Labour party, has stood up and shown that she does not understand and appreciate the considerable value that immigrants have brought to our country. These are human beings—[Interruption.] I will take an intervention when I want—I am not afraid of a debate, and I will take one now.

[Caroline Flint]

I would urge the right hon. Lady to look at the record in Hansard. I made it very clear that I am not against all immigration, and I also said very clearly that nor are my constituents, but they want to feel that we have better systems in place and that immigration is fair and managed, and that is something they have not felt for a long time.

[Anna Soubry]

The right hon. Lady represents an area of the country that I know quite well; I am from north Nottinghamshire—from Worksop—and I also represent the constituency of Broxtowe. It is often quite peculiarly unique, and perhaps a little bizarre, that those who complain most about immigration are in areas where there is actually very little of it. That is the point: it is about the fear of the stranger—the fear of the unknown—and we have a duty as Members of Parliament to make the positive case in our constituencies for immigration and to have these debates with our constituents.

It is true, and I agree, that in some parts of our country a large number of people have come in, but these are invariably Polish people, Latvians and Lithuanians who do the work that, in reality, our own constituents will not do. It is a myth that there is an army of people sitting at home desperately wanting to do jobs. The truth of the matter is that we have full employment, and we do control immigration. How do we control it? It is called the market. Overwhelmingly, people come here to work. When we do not have the jobs, they simply do not come.

Now, it is right, and I agree—this is a sad legacy of previous Labour Governments—that there has not been the investment in skills that this Government are now making, and they have a proud record on apprenticeships, by way of example. However, I say to the right hon. Lady that she must speak to the businesses in her constituency, and she must ask them, “Who are these people? Where have they come from? Why have you not employed locally?” I have done that with the businesses in my constituency, and some have told me that they have probably broken the law. They have gone out deliberately and absolutely clearly to recruit local people, and they have found that, with very few exceptions, they have been unable to fill the vacancies. They take grave exception to anybody who says that they undercut in their wages or do not offer people great opportunities. It is a myth, as I say, that there are armies of people wanting to work who cannot work because of immigration.

The huge danger of the argument being advanced by some Opposition Members, as the hon. Member for Streatham (Chuka Umunna) said, is that people play into a narrative that, instead of looking at other factors in life, turns to the stranger and—history tells us the danger of doing this—blames the foreigner, the unknown and the person with a different coloured skin or a different accent, when there are actually other reasons for the discomforts and the problems people have in their lives.

I say to Opposition Members that they should be proud of their fine tradition. What they should be doing is making the case for immigration and then saying this: “Suck it up!” No alternative has been advanced in this place other than the customs union and the single market. Let’s grab it—let’s do it and move on.

Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Flint and Anna Soubry

Thursday 25th February 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Sir David. This debate saddens and disappoints me. I remember when the previous Government came to the Commons to seek support for extending the opening hours during the Olympics. I, along with others, listened in good faith to the arguments presented by the Government. Like Members of all parties, I was concerned that giving the green light to the extension would be the start of something much wider in England and Wales.

I am also saddened by the fact that in April 2015 USDAW received a letter written on behalf of David Cameron stating that the Government had no plans to relax the current legislation. The letter was written on behalf of the Prime Minister in 2015, and we have the same Prime Minister in 2016. However, a review was subsequently announced in June 2015 after the election. On two occasions, senior figures in our political system—the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister—have seemed to say one thing to get the support of the House and the electorate, and then down the road it seems they have changed their view. Perhaps that was already their plan. As my hon. Friends have already outlined, we have what it is fair to call a great British compromise. It is not the case—

[Anna Soubry]

It is not “British”; the Scots have a different system.

[Caroline Flint]

I will come on to Scotland shortly. I am proud of being English; in England we do not have to do everything that they do in Scotland, and vice versa. That is the beauty of devolution. Sometimes we are right and they are wrong—and, to be fair to Scottish National party Committee members, sometimes Scotland gets it right and we get it wrong. I pay tribute to the fact that the Scots chose to go ahead with the ban on smoking in enclosed public spaces before England did. As public health Minister, I went to Scotland to learn from its success. It was a good example of seeing where things could be done differently and how we could learn from them.

I think England is very different from Scotland when it comes to the retail sector. No offence, but England is a much bigger country with a much larger population. The density of our cities and their proximity to each other—putting aside Glasgow and Edinburgh—means that the changes the Government are suggesting could end up, as my hon. Friends have outlined, having a mushrooming effect as one city makes one decision under one local authority and that leads to pressure on others. I worry about that.

According to a survey by USDAW of more than 10,000 shop workers, the vast majority work at least some Sundays. Most work every Saturday. Perhaps there is a reason why the Government want the changes. My hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central made an interesting point: he said we need to tighten up the protection of workers’ rights in this area because 35% of staff in large stores would like to work fewer hours on a Sunday. That indicates, along with other evidence, that undue pressure is already being put on workers in retail today. Regardless of whether our Parliament decides to go ahead with the Government’s proposals, I hope that the Government will extend the protections under the existing arrangements to retail workers who work on Sundays.

I happen to think that not every day of the week should be the same. It is good to have something a bit different and a bit British. I am old enough to remember the halcyon days when we had half-day closing on a Wednesday. My grandparents were publicans. My parents worked in pubs, and I have worked in pubs. I remember when we opened at 12 o’clock on a Sunday and closed at 2 o’clock, then did not open until 7 o’clock that night. There are some issues around the opening hours of that sector as well.

I also remember when banks were first allowed to open on a Saturday. In fact, it was on a new Saturday opening of the NatWest branch in Richmond when my husband and I happened to go in with our children to get some pocket money for them and we managed to foil an armed bank robbery. Having done that and the robber having been apprehended by the police, my husband and I were put on alert that we might have to give evidence in court; on that particular Saturday, staff had been brought from another branch and had forgotten to put the cameras on inside the branch. As a result, there was no evidence, so my husband and I were the only persons who could put the armed robber in the bank and outside the bank at the relevant time.

There is often confusion about what the opening up of these arrangements means for staff. How ironic it is that all these years later, after all that extension of banks’ opening hours, we are now seeing bank closures. Throughout the villages in my constituency, I see banks closing from Monday to Friday, when consumers would like to see them open.

According to a statement from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills:

“The current Sunday trading rules are restrictive, stifling business efficiency and competitiveness and inhibiting consumer choice and reducing the ability of our major cities to compete for international tourism.”

In the words of Victor Meldrew, “I don’t believe it!” I happen to have in my constituency the excellent Yorkshire Wildlife Park, which is one of the fastest growing tourist attractions in Yorkshire. You are very welcome to visit, Sir David, if you happen to be in south Yorkshire on a weekend.

Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Flint and Anna Soubry

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Caroline Flint]

I ask the Minister to consider this: the Green Investment Bank is not broken and has not caused a problem, so why would we not want to retain some of the best elements of what is, in effect, a public-private partnership to ensure that it can still do good and command public trust and support?

[Anna Soubry]

With respect to the right hon. Lady, that is not what her amendment is about. She is now talking about what is to come in the next debate. Clause 30 seeks to put something on to this business once it has been sold into the private sector. It is important that we remember that when it is sold is when taxpayers will get their money back. Having got their money back, that will be the end of their involvement in it, save for the bank, which we created, continuing to have its green credentials, as I will describe when we reach the relevant clause.

The amendment is unnecessary. When the bank is privatised, we will not control its remuneration policy, and rightly so. If the Government retained a minority stake, we could not control remuneration policy because it would be wrong of us or Parliament to seek to control the decisions that are properly for the board of the company and its shareholders to make. The bank will not be treated differently, nor should it be. As I said, the investment made on the behalf of the taxpayer will have been paid back and the bank will then be free to continue its great work, unconstrained by anything that Government might put on it. As a shareholder, however, we can still express views and agree with other shareholders as to the level of reporting that would be appropriate on this and other issues. I therefore suggest that the amendment might look good on paper, but is absolutely not the right thing to do in reality when we privatise 0the Green Investment Bank.

Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Flint and Anna Soubry

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Anna Soubry]

It is not mine to circulate, but I have no problem doing that. I am sure that Lord Smith will not have any problem with it either. It is all on the record.

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

We haven’t got a copy, though.

[Anna Soubry]

The hon. Member for Cardiff West has said that he has seen the letter. What is important is whether what is in the letter is to be believed. That is what matters, and I respectfully suggest that Lord Smith’s fine words can be accepted. If anyone has got a problem or thinks that in some way I am reading something out inaccurately, I am sure—

Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Flint and Anna Soubry

Thursday 11th February 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Kevin Brennan]

As my right hon. Friend says from a sedentary position, his auntie would quite certainly understand, too.

The Government have had to set up the slush fund that we heard about this week to placate their own MPs, who are complaining about cuts to local government funding in their areas. The Government have set a target of 3 million apprenticeships by 2020. We want apprenticeships to continue to expand, but what we do not want—and I do not think the Government want this either—is for this to degenerate into a “never mind the quality, feel the width” philosophy. The quality of apprenticeships is of paramount importance, so I hope the Minister will give us her assurance that the Government will be vigilant on quality as numbers expand, and that she will explain how public bodies, including local authorities, are to meet the target when they are subject to such brutal financial pressures from central Government.

[Anna Soubry]

I will not respond to everything that has been said. Our local authorities are more than able to fulfil their target. On Second Reading I gave the example of my own borough council, which has gone from having three or four apprenticeships a year to an absolute target of well over 20 a year. As the council is often keen to remind me—I am delighted to see my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning here from the Department for Communities and Local Government—it does not have one of the best settlements among local authorities. Notwithstanding that, it has been able to more than exceed any target in its determination to provide apprenticeships.

We were concerned that low-quality courses that did not meet the requirements of a statutory apprenticeship would dilute the apprenticeship brand. We are fully aware of that, which is why we are so keen to create an offence for a person in the course of a business to provide or offer a course or training as an apprenticeship if it is not a statutory apprenticeship. That is how seriously we take the matter, and it is one way in which we are determined to ensure that apprenticeships are all the things that people would expect them to be.

Of course, we know that one of the most important groups of people when it comes to apprenticeships is parents. As parents, we care deeply about what our children choose to do, and I will be brutally honest with the Committee that there was a real problem under the last Labour Government, when there was a rush to go into higher education and university. If someone’s child did not go to university, they were seen in some way as a failure. That was palpable nonsense, and I say that as the mother of one daughter who went to university and another who did not. It is fantastic, brilliant and wonderful to go to university—it is a fabulous time of one’s life—but if someone does not go to university, they should not be regarded in some way as a second-class citizen.

I always use the example—my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North is here, and she will know what I am about to say—that if a youngster in my constituency gets an apprenticeship at Rolls-Royce, although it does not lie within my constituency, it is seen as being as good as any university course at the finest of our excellent and outstanding universities. They are remarkable opportunities for young people and, as we know, some of those apprenticeship courses have a duration of some seven years.

[Caroline Flint]

The Minister makes an interesting point about universities. I was the first in my family to go to university; my brother and sister both left school at 16 and went to work. Does she agree that it was perhaps a mistake under a Tory Government to get rid of polytechnics? Through polytechnics, there was much greater scope to raise the level of vocational education and of professions across all sorts of areas—people had a clear idea of what they were going into. In some ways, the merging of polytechnics and universities was to the detriment of vocational education.

[Anna Soubry]

That is very interesting, but I will not spend too long on it. The right hon. Lady and I are as one. We have a common background, because both my brothers left school at 16 and went into the world of work, and neither of my parents went to university, either. I was the only one who went to university, so I can say this, because it was a Conservative Government who got rid of polytechnics and a Labour Government who did not do anything about it. We are equal. I agree with her that there is a good argument that it was a mistake to get rid of the polytechnics. I always think of Trent Polytechnic in Nottingham, which was an outstanding polytechnic which offered exceptional courses with a vocational twist. Having said all that, I will look at Derby University, Lincoln University, Nottingham Trent University and Nottingham University—[Interruption.] Yes, I know I am straying off the point, Ms Buck.

All those universities are excellent, and we need to understand that almost any opportunity we can offer our children is wonderful, but we should not discriminate against those youngsters who do not go to university, which has happened, and I am delighted that we are addressing that imbalance.

We have made an absolute commitment to deliver 3 million apprentices. I am helpfully reminded by my excellent Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby that information in a House of Commons Library note shows that there were fewer than 300,000 apprenticeships at the end of 2010 but that—here’s a thing—in 2011-12, there were well over 0.5 million apprenticeships.

Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)

Debate between Caroline Flint and Anna Soubry

Tuesday 9th February 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Anna Soubry]

Again, I shall keep my comments specifically to the amendments. The small business commissioner’s main role will be to address the problem of late payments, and the biggest problem that small businesses face with late payments is bigger businesses not paying them in the way that they want. However, there is also a problem with the public sector. Our consultation made it clear that people did not want a duplication of existing ways and means by which small businesses can ensure that public bodies pay on time. If we expanded the small business commissioner’s remit to include public bodies, we would duplicate pre-existing ways of raising a complaint and dealing with the problem.

[Caroline Flint]

rose—

[Mary Creagh]

rose—

[Anna Soubry]

I am going to continue. I will take some interventions, but not yet.

This Government are on the side of small businesses and, in the Public Contracts Regulations 2015, we now have strict rules obliging central Government to ensure that 80% of undisputed invoices are paid within five days. As a result, I am pleased to say that my Department paid 98.6% within five days and 99.5% within 30 days. The first quarter statistics for 2015-16 show that, on average, central Government Departments paid 89% of undisputed invoices in five days. We have set clear rules for how we expect all public authorities to deal with small businesses in particular.

However, notwithstanding the regulations that we introduced, the strong messages that we are sending out and the way in which we are putting into practice what we preach, there is evidence that that does not necessarily go all the way through the supply chain. I think that was the point that the hon. Member for Wakefield was making, and no doubt the concern of the hon. Member for Doncaster—

[Caroline Flint]

Don Valley.

[Anna Soubry]

The hon. Member for Don Valley, rather.

[Caroline Flint]

Right honourable.

[Anna Soubry]

Sorry, the right hon. Member for Wakefield—

--- Later in debate ---

[Anna Soubry]

I thought I had read out the figures that show a huge change; I am happy to read them out again. I am resisting all temptation to say that it is rather strange that the Labour party seems to have done diddly squat during the 13 years when they could have solved all these problems. This Government have made a significant change. For the purposes of Hansard, I repeat that BIS paid 96.8% of those undisputed invoices within five days and 99.5% within 30 days. I am happy for us to get all the statistics, if they exist, that show the real strides we are taking.

[Caroline Flint]

rose—

[Catherine McKinnell]

rose—

[Anna Soubry]

I will give way in a moment. I know that it is difficult for Labour Members—they can dish it out, but they can’t take it. There is real evidence that we are seeing this trickling all the way down. However, as I have conceded—I am being as fair as I hope to be—I am concerned that it is not going all the way down through the supply chain. I have conceded that the name of the mystery shopper service may be a little not brilliant, but what is important is whether it delivers. There is absolute evidence that it does.

I think my noble Friend Baroness Neville-Rolfe would take exception to the rather cheap dig made about her, because she is absolutely on the side of small businesses. I know that she has been involved with a number of small businesses. For the record, she was not on the board of Tesco when it behaved in that unacceptable way. Thank goodness that a Conservative-led Government introduced the Groceries Code Adjudicator to bring Tesco to book—but we are going off the point. She gave a good example from the Ministry of Defence of exactly how the mystery shopper service is working. The more we advertise it, the better.

[Caroline Flint]

Of course, as head of public affairs, Baroness Neville-Rolfe spent a lot of time defending how Tesco treated farmers and everyone else. The problem is not going to go away, whatever the outcome of these proceedings.

Can the Minister, to help the Committee, provide us with full details in writing of the record of every Department, and maybe also some other parts of the public sector, on payments? The issue is not just about payment from a Department to one supplier; often other, smaller suppliers are subcontracted as well. It goes way beyond that. It is a missed opportunity, particularly for the number of areas of the country, including my own, in which small and medium-sized businesses depend on the public sector in all its variety, not to include them in the Bill.

[Anna Soubry]

If those figures exist, of course I am more than happy to share them. However, as I have said, the first quarter statistics for 2015-16 show that on average, central Government Departments paid 89%—we have exceeded our own target—of undisputed invoices within five days. However, I absolutely agree with the point that the right hon. Lady was trying to make, which is—

[Caroline Flint]

Will the Minister give way?

[Anna Soubry]

At least let me finish my point. My point is that the problem may well exist within the supply chain. We know that regulations from central Government are hugely important in driving the change required. We also know three things. First, there are ombudsmen who can absolutely assist in curing such mischief. That is the first place where many small businesses can go. Secondly, there is the mystery shopper service, which, as I have said, is already providing evidence that it is curing the problem.

The third way in which we ensure that cultural change occurs—we must be honest about this—is when a small business comes to us as constituency MPs: we are in a unique position to go to our local authorities. We usually do so rather quietly; it does not have to involve bells and singing and dancing. We speak to the leadership of our local authorities, both officers and councillors—often of our own persuasion, although that matters not—to say, “I have an example of a small business. I won’t give you their name, but I have evidence, and I am concerned. Let’s change the culture within our local authority and do something about it.”

For example, somebody has approached me with a problem relating to a construction project of which I am aware. As the Minister, I am taking that up directly with the chief executive of the hospital trust involved to ensure that the trickle-down of cultural change goes all the way through the supply chain.

[Caroline Flint]

The Minister makes an interesting point about the role of MPs. One could say the same about MPs going to businesses in communities and making the point there, but the Bill offers support for the small business commissioner to deal with the private sector.

On the point that the Minister made about the percentage of undisputed bills that are sorted, does she not agree that the extent of business that goes on varies enormously across Government? I gently suggest that it might be interesting to compare the transactions between the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and SMEs with the volume and size in monetary terms of the contracts between the Department of Health, for instance, and the small business community. I would say they are very different. I hope she will write to the Committee to provide more detail about volume and monetary value, because 89% in BIS may be very different from, say, 70% in the Department of Health or elsewhere.

Redcar Coke Ovens

Debate between Caroline Flint and Anna Soubry

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Anna Soubry]

As I said, the hon. Lady and I are bound to fall out on these things. Let me just make this absolutely clear: this is not a decision that the Government have taken; this is a decision that the official receiver has taken. The official receiver is independent. It is his decision and, as I said, he has made it after more than a week of trying to forge an agreement with potential buyers, notably of the coke ovens. I do not believe that anybody has come forward to buy the blast furnace.

We know the reality. The reality is that there is an over-production of steel across the world and an under-consumption. We have not even got back to pre-crisis levels; in fact, we are 25% short. The price of slab made in Redcar has almost halved in 12 months. That is why the site has never turned a profit. That is why, unfortunately, it has made losses year on year. As I said, the coke ovens were making a loss of some £2 million a month. We have done everything we can.

In relation to the environment, we disagree. We are working with the Health and Safety Executive and the Environment Agency. The truth is that those discussions had been happening for some considerable time before the company went into liquidation, because such an outcome was always the fear, faced with the harsh reality of where we are with our steel industry not only in this country but across the whole world.

Nobody is hiding behind the state aid rules. Many stories are told about what other countries do, but when we dig deep into such stories, we find that they are actually the stuff of myth. Italy is a particular example of that. [Interruption.] I think somebody is shouting, “Outrageous!” I am more than happy to share with—

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

Be braver.

[Anna Soubry]

Oh, I don’t have a problem with being brave. I can tell the right hon. Lady that if we look at the action that Italy has taken, even in the peculiar and exceptional circumstances of a group of directors facing allegations that they were poisoning the land and causing cancer, the Commission is now investigating the situation because it is concerned that there has been a breach of the state aid rules. Such is the nature of the rules, which are very onerous.

Finally, on the £80 million package we have put in, the hon. Member for Redcar makes the point that about £20 million—I think it is nearer £30 million—of that is by way of redundancy payments. Let me make it clear that that was always my understanding, and I thought that we had made that clear when we were up in Redcar. In any event, let me also make it very clear that I am not closing the door on the £80 million, because one of the things of which we are very aware is the implications for the many thousands of other people through the supply chain. Many of them have not been paid for some considerable time, such was the contractors’ and subcontractors’ loyalty to SSI, so the effects through the supply chain will be considerable. I certainly want to be in a position to be able to help everybody, not just the 2,100 people who have unfortunately been affected by the announcement.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Caroline Flint and Anna Soubry

Tuesday 15th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Anna Soubry]

As somebody who was self-employed for more years than I care to remember—about 20 years —I am fully aware of not only the benefits but the disadvantages. My hon. Friend makes a really good point about the importance of communication, so that people who are self-employed know what assistance is available. Julie will be looking at that particular aspect, and we welcome and look forward to her report and her recommendations.

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

By how many hundreds if not thousands of pounds will self-employed people lose out from the removal of working tax credits, which we will be discussing today, from working people, including the self-employed?

[Anna Soubry]

The straight answer is that I do not have a figure, but I will find out and I will write—[Interruption.] No, don’t be silly. I will write to the right hon. Lady with that figure. Let me make it absolutely clear: the rebalancing of our economy, paying off our debts, reducing the deficit and making sure that work pays are at the heart of what the Government stand for. That is what we were elected on, with a very clear manifesto and the support of the British people. We are doing the right thing by hard-working families.