Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Tony Lloyd

2nd reading
Tuesday 24th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Gentleman gives a powerful and clear outline of the difficulty and pain that people feel, as he has just shown, in this very complex and sensitive area. He makes that point better than almost anybody else could. He touches on the very challenge we face, as we have seen over the past few decades, with the failure of the current system to bring that accountability, understanding and truth for people. As I will outline over the next few minutes, through this legislation we want to achieve an outcome that means people get the truth, with which comes accountability. He is right to focus on that for his constituents.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Like the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I have met many victims of the violence and the loved ones of those who died. They still want the Stormont House agreement to be implemented. The Secretary of State has to account for this. The civil proceedings on the Ormeau Road events revealed a lot of detail, as did the Kingsmill and Ballymurphy inquests. They all revealed truths that had not been known. What the Secretary of State describes as an adversarial approach to seeking justice actually works. This will disappear and he has to account for that.

[Brandon Lewis]

It is not going to disappear. What we are looking to do is to have a full, independent, investigative, article 2-compliant process. I will touch on that in the next few minutes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Tony Lloyd

Wednesday 26th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

As I have outlined, as the Prime Minister said at the time and as I have said in responding to public inquiries recently, we as the Government must accept responsibility for what has happened in the past. When things are wrong, we need to be clear about that, as we have been. It is right that we have apologised for that, and I have added my own personal apology to that of the Government. We also need to ensure that we all work together to find a way forward to ensure that people are clear that violence is not an answer to anything in Northern Ireland or elsewhere.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State rightly made his comments about Bloody Sunday at the beginning of his remarks, but he will recognise that it took nearly 40 years for the Saville inquiry to clear the innocent victims who were murdered that day and those who were injured. Will he confirm that under the proposals that he will bring to the House a judicial inquiry will still be possible? If not, we condemn victims and their families to the accusation of guilt when an inquiry would prove their innocence.

[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Gentleman gives a powerful example. Ballymurphy, which I spoke about at the Dispatch Box not that long ago, is another powerful example of it taking far too long in these situations for families to get answers and to get to the truth. I can be very clear with the House, as I have been before, that I am determined that the legislation we bring forward will allow families to get to the truth and understand what happened quicker than we have seen before. People should not be waiting decades for information.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Tony Lloyd

Wednesday 27th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

I appreciate that my right hon. Friend has campaigned on the issue for a long time and he has been forthright in his determination to deliver for the veterans community. We set out our Command Paper in July just before the summer recess. As we said we would, we have been engaging with interested parties in the past couple of months, including not just the veterans community but victims, civic society and, more widely, the political parties in Northern Ireland. As we said in the Command Paper, we are still focused on delivering legislation to the House this autumn.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Can the Secretary of State tell the House clearly which of the groups representing the families of victims that he has met have agreed with his proposals?

[Brandon Lewis]

As I said when I launched the Command Paper, we appreciate that it is a very sensitive and complex issue that will affect a huge range of people. We have had wide engagement across victims groups and with victims who are not represented by groups. We are taking on that feedback at the moment and we will come forward with proposals very soon.

Northern Ireland Protocol

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Tony Lloyd

Wednesday 21st July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

Yes, and we are looking forward to having those very conversations with the EU in the weeks ahead.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

The Secretary of State knows as well as I do that the bulk of commerce and industry in Northern Ireland is getting on with making the protocol work, but a veterinary agreement would solve the problems that have not yet been resolved. Does he not recognise that public diplomacy and unilateralism may please his Back Benchers, but it is dangerous in the context of Northern Ireland? Will he insist to the Prime Minister and the noble Lord Frost that they get back to the negotiating table and do that in private until they come up with an acceptable result?

[Brandon Lewis]

Again, perhaps the hon. Gentleman should have a look in detail at the statement I gave a short while ago and the Command Paper, because we are specifically setting out that we want to negotiate a solution with the European Union. I would just say to him that we are the party that has put forward a whole series of pages to the EU, which we are waiting for proper engagement on. We have not publicised them; we have not gone to the press about that. We have been doing that because we want to give space for a proper negotiation and the freedom to do that, to get a proper solution for the people of Northern Ireland. I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider getting behind the UK Government to get a positive solution for Northern Ireland.

Legacy of Northern Ireland’s Past

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Tony Lloyd

Wednesday 14th July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

Can the Secretary of State honestly think of any circumstance where he would say to the families of victims of murder anywhere else in the United Kingdom—including Northern Ireland, under different circumstances—that an amnesty was the way to bring them reconciliation and peace? If not, how does he say to the families of victims of the troubles that this is the correct way forward? Far from this practically meaning that we will move towards reconciliation, if he carries on with it, he will set up another wave of intercommunal unhappiness. That cannot be the way forward.

[Brandon Lewis]

Where I agree with the hon. Gentleman is on the desire to end the intergenerational challenge and trauma that we are seeing, with families and people now with us who were simply not alive at the time of the troubles and have no recollection of just how dreadful a situation that was for Northern Ireland. We need to stop this intergenerational issue.

I will say in direct answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question that the troubles represent a uniquely troubled time in our history. The Good Friday/Belfast agreement itself acknowledged that. In focusing on a shared future for Northern Ireland, we sometimes need to make difficult decisions in relation to the past, as his colleagues did and as our colleagues did back at the time of the Belfast agreement. We are in a different situation in Northern Ireland with the troubles from most other crimes because of the sentencing Act that followed the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. We need to be honest about that and deal with the reality of where we are, however difficult that may be.

Ballymurphy Inquest Findings

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Tony Lloyd

Thursday 13th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I repeat what I said in my statement: we must never forget. As I said, “We must never dismiss or ignore the past”, but we must learn from it—we must find a way to move forward.

Going to the heart of what my hon. Friend said, my experience of dealing with and talking to people across Northern Ireland—across the whole community of Northern Ireland in civic society—shows that there is a determined desire to have proper reconciliation, stability and sustainability. There is a determination to have a Northern Ireland that is a prosperous and an exciting place to live and work, which it is, so that we can all continue to be proud of it and continue to live with the amazing success we have seen there since the delivery of what was, at the time, a very difficult series of decisions that led to the Good Friday agreement.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

The Secretary of State is right to recognise that reconciliation depends on the truth, but the problem with the whole horrendous saga around the murders at Ballymurphy is that a cloud of corruption has hung over it now for nearly five decades. What the Secretary of State describes as serious errors was murder by agents of our state covered up by our state, and we must now recognise the damage that has done. So will the Secretary of State commit to making sure that every effort will now be made to reveal what happened not simply at the time but in the years since to cover this up? That must include access to the records of the security services, because, frankly, if he will not give that commitment, he will be letting down the Ballymurphy families.

[Brandon Lewis]

As I have said, the Ballymurphy families have waited for far too long, through successive Governments and over too many decades, to get an understanding of what actually happened. We need to find a way forward that can make sure that families such as the Ballymurphy families are able to get that information—that understanding, recognition and truth—much more quickly. That will mean ensuring that they have access to all the information that is available both across Northern Ireland and from the British and UK state.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Tony Lloyd

Tuesday 13th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

My hon. Friend raises a really important point. Colleagues from all parties are speaking about this issue in the House today and they have influence and relationships throughout the EU, and it is incumbent on us all to make the case widely that it is important that the EU understands the issue of identity and why the tensions that we are seeing in the loyalist and Unionist community are there in respect of some of the things that happened earlier this year, as we have already outlined. As I say, there is a fundamentally multifaceted, complex set of reasons behind what happened last week, and there is work for all of us to do in moving things forward. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we all have a part to play to ensure that people understand the complications, nuances and sensitivities in Northern Ireland.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

The Secretary of State deserves the support of the whole House and, indeed, of the people across these two islands for every effort he makes to bring together politicians in Northern Ireland, in Dublin and here in Great Britain, but the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) is right to point out that at the moment the lack of trust is palpable. If the Secretary of State wants to make sure that the European Union understands the situation in Northern Ireland and if he wants to bring people together, it would not be just symbolism for him to tell the Prime Minister that he has to be visible at this time if he is to provide the kind of leadership that we have expected from Prime Ministers in the past. We need brave decisions; it is now up to the Prime Minister to step forward and provide that kind of leadership.

Northern Ireland Protocol

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Tony Lloyd

Wednesday 10th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

My hon. Friend, as always, makes an important point. I welcome our friends and partners around the world taking an interest in any part of the UK. Our friends in the US have always had a very clear interest in issues and matters around Northern Ireland, and have been huge supporters of the Good Friday/Belfast agreement for many years. In this role, I have had continuous engagement with colleagues in the Irish caucus who are meeting Vice-President Šefčovič and Simon Coveney today. I look forward to talking to them again in due course myself. I do not think that we are involved as a Government in that meeting today, but I hope that Vice-President Šefčovič will continue that kind of engagement, particularly with the people of Northern Ireland—in both the business community and civic society—building on the meeting that we had a few weeks ago, as he said he would, to really understand some of the issues affecting people and businesses in Northern Ireland, and therefore work with us in a positive way to remedy any issues. I welcome any interest from people around the world and their support for all strands of the Good Friday agreement.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

To be fair to the Secretary of State, he has made very little attempt to persuade the House or anybody else that the Prime Minister knew what he was doing when he signed up to the protocol, but does he recognise that he is now going to have to do a repair job to persuade not just Dublin, Brussels and Washington, but the whole of the world with which we want to work, that the UK is a reliable trading partner—and other forms of partner—because that is not there today?

[Brandon Lewis]

I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman did not make similar comments about the moves that the Irish Government made in January and the flexibilities they put in place. He should support the UK Government in doing what is right for the people of Northern Ireland. I hope that, working with our partners in the EU, these temporary, pragmatic measures will give us the space to be able to get permanent, long-term solutions, in partnership. Ultimately, we will do what is right for the people of Northern Ireland in respecting the Good Friday/Belfast agreement.

Patrick Finucane: Supreme Court Judgment

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Tony Lloyd

Monday 30th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

As always, my hon. Friend makes an accurate point. Owing to the independence of the PSNI, the exact timing of the process is a matter for it. As I said earlier, it is expecting to start in early 2021. I saw the Chief Constable about a week or 10 days ago, when he indicated to me that it could well start as early as January. The PSNI will be engaging with the family to seek their views on how they wish to engage with the process before that happens. The question how long the review will take to go forward is an operational matter for the PSNI. Operational matters—even if they are part of the review process in investigation cases—are a matter for the PSNI, which is operationally independent.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]]

I very much regret the Secretary of State’s decision; it is the wrong one. I am sure that we will return to a public inquiry in the fullness of time. Does he accept the fact that the decision not to hold a public inquiry looks like the state still determined to protect the state? This was no failure by actors of the state; it was collusion by agents of the state. Of course, the reality is that we still need to find out how far that collusion went. Can the Secretary of State be specific: will the PSNI and ombudsman inquiry have access to the records of the security services? Without that, frankly, their own inquiries will not come to the conclusions that we need to be put into the public domain.

[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Gentleman has a long history of working on issues for Northern Ireland; it is good to see him today, even via video link. As the former Prime Minister David Cameron outlined and as I have reconfirmed today, the fact that we have apologised for the collusion that happened—the unacceptable levels—is in the public domain. That was a matter of record back in 2011, as we all know and have discussed a few times today. The operational independence of the PSNI means that this is a matter for the PSNI. They will assess the remit and how they take this case forward. I have confidence not only in their independence, but in their expertise and professionalism to do that in a proper way. It is after those reviews that we will fully assess where we are in terms of article 2 obligations, before making any further decisions, to ensure that we have completed them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Tony Lloyd

Wednesday 18th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. We all want good support for mental health and to see people with mental health issues getting the right support and healthcare. As I have outlined, we have a very substantial Budget for the Northern Ireland Executive, and I hope we will be able to see good provision. I spoke to the Health Minister yesterday about covid-19, but the issue that the hon. Lady raises is one of those that we will continue to have conversations about.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

The link between health and the economy is now automatic because of the coronavirus situation. If I had been asking the Secretary of State a question about health in Northern Ireland two weeks ago, I would have pointed out that there is a £600 million shortfall in bringing the Northern Ireland health budget up to speed. How much money exactly will be put into that budget to ensure that the health system there is robust against coronavirus, and to build up the capacity that it ought to have so that it catches up with the rest of the UK?

[Brandon Lewis]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, a key focus for the Northern Ireland Executive is how we improve, and how they improve, health support for people across Northern Ireland. Quite rightly, everybody’s focus at the moment is primarily on not only wider health issues, but the specifics of dealing with coronavirus. The Executive have been hugely focused on that, including the Deputy First Minister, the First Minister and the Health Minister, all of whom I spoke to yesterday. That is where the focus is. There is a substantial budget—as part of the “New Decade, New Approach” deal, there is £2 billion of support for the Northern Ireland Executive, and I hope that we will see a really improved health service for the people of Northern Ireland.

[Tony Lloyd]

The Secretary of State has to do better than this. The amount of money that has been made available for coronavirus and health generally is not enough for the needs of the people of Northern Ireland. Will the wider moneys available guarantee support for those who cannot get sick pay and cannot pay their rent, and guarantee that those whose small businesses are under pressure will still be in business when we get through this crisis?

[Brandon Lewis]

I say gently to the hon. Gentleman that there is £2 billion linked to the “New Decade, New Approach” deal. As I said, last week’s Budget announcements will provide £900 million for the coronavirus situation. That is a substantial amount for Northern Ireland, on top of the money that the Executive already have. I share his desire to see the Executive delivering strong and good healthcare for Northern Ireland, and we will work with the Northern Ireland Executive on that.