Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Alistair Carmichael

2nd reading
Tuesday 24th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

I will just make a bit of progress and then take some more interventions.

Drawing its core principles from the important work and principles of Stormont House, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, this legislation focuses on effective and timely information recovery, and the answers and accountability that come with it, for both families and survivors, as well as aiding reconciliation and helping society move forward.

The Bill will deliver on our manifesto commitment to the veterans of our armed forces, security services and the Royal Ulster Constabulary by providing the men and women who served to protect life in Northern Ireland with the certainty they also deserve. Many of them, of course, are also victims, or friends and family of victims.

No longer will our veterans, the vast majority of whom served in Northern Ireland with distinction and honour, have to live in perpetual fear of getting a knock at the door for actions taken in the protection of the rule of law many decades ago. With this Bill, our veterans will have the certainty they deserve and we will fulfil our manifesto pledge to end the cycle of investigations that has plagued too many of them for too long.

I acknowledge the many hon. and right hon. Members on both sides of the House, particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) and my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), as well as my right hon. Friends the Members for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) and for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) and the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), who have campaigned tirelessly and with great dignity on this issue. Indeed, I recognise that many victims and veterans groups more widely across Northern Ireland and Great Britain have campaigned for a long time for better outcomes for victims and survivors.

We were clear when we published our Command Paper last July that we would listen to feedback with an open mind, and my team and I have done just that over the last 10 months. We have heard the pain and perspectives of people from all viewpoints and communities. During those conversations, we repeatedly had to confront the very painful reality that, with more than two thirds of troubles-related cases now 40 years old, the prospect of successful prosecutions is vanishingly small, which is why this legislation marks a definitive shift in focus by having information recovery for families at its core.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

In all candour, I do not envy the Secretary of State’s task. He describes it as painful, difficult and sensitive. All those words are absolutely correct, but this is not the first time we have been in this situation. Since the days of John Major and Tony Blair, the only way we have been able to make progress is to get everybody together to build consensus and then introduce legislation. It is surely already apparent from today’s debate that the Secretary of State does not have that consensus, so what does he hope to achieve by introducing this legislation?

[Brandon Lewis]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point. As I said, it is widely acknowledged that this is a very difficult and painful area on which there has not been consensus. There was not even full cross-party consensus on Stormont House. That is why there are times like this when, having listened to everybody—the political parties, the victims groups and the veterans groups—it is sometimes for us in Government to take those difficult decisions to find a way forward that can deliver a better outcome for people.

Legacy of Northern Ireland’s Past

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Alistair Carmichael

Wednesday 14th July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

As I said to my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), I do recognise the desire of colleagues to see legislation and they will see legislation before the end of the autumn. I would have liked to bring legislation forward earlier, but it is important that we are working with our partners, not just the Irish Government, as I have outlined, but interested parties and political parties in Northern Ireland, to find a way forward if we can. This paper is intended to inform those discussions in the next few weeks so that we can find a mutual way forward. I recognise my hon. Friend’s point about who will and will not come forward with the information, but one challenge of the situation at the moment is that information is not coming forward. If we do not find a way of doing something different, we are, sadly, in a position where, because of time, that information will no longer be with us. We believe it is time to do something bold and different to find a way forward that can get to the truth, as far as we can, to get answers for families who have waited for far too long, as well as to help Northern Ireland to move forward.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

The Secretary of State’s statement today is a quite remarkable achievement. I have followed Northern Ireland politics all my adult life and I can think of very few occasions when Secretaries of State in this place have been able to unite all five parties in Northern Ireland, but he today has achieved exactly that. They are, however, all united in telling him that on the question of an amnesty he is wrong. He stands at the Dispatch Box today and says that he makes no moral equivalence between those who broke the law and those who upheld it. Why then is he offering them all legal equivalence?

[Brandon Lewis]

I am sure people would have asked our predecessors those sort of questions with the equivalence that came from the Belfast/Good Friday agreement under the Labour Government at the time of that agreement and the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998 that followed it. That is the reality of where we are. As I have said, there is a difficult, painful reality of where we are and the situation where we are in: the reality of not seeing prosecutions and painfully being honest with victims about what is achievable. In the conversations that Operation Kenova and I have had, people have talked, as we have seen in the past 24 hours, about wanting to get to the truth, get to information and get an understanding in many cases of what actually happened. The current system is not working and we need to find a different way forward to do something that can make a difference to get to the truth. That is what we want to achieve with a proper, genuine, delivering information recovery process.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Alistair Carmichael

Tuesday 13th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s comments on the violence, and he is absolutely right. The position that he has outlined that we need to get to is exactly where we want to get to. Obviously we want to do that in partnership and agreement with our friends and partners in the EU, and that work is what we are doing at this very moment.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

For years, the Government have been warned that peace in Northern Ireland was a delicate and fragile thing that was not to be taken for granted. The fact that we have reached this point illustrates sadly only too well the recklessness of the Prime Minister in particular with regard to the position of Northern Ireland and our departure from the European Union. This is not the first time in the past 23 years that we have found ourselves in peril. On previous occasions, it has taken the Prime Minister of the day to step up to the plate. The symbolism and demonstrating leadership are what is necessary. His predecessors have done it; will he do it now?

[Brandon Lewis]

For my part, that is absolutely the work that we are doing with the parties, civic society and business leaders in Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister and I have been involved in that all the way through. He has had a consistent focus on ensuring that we are delivering for the people of Northern Ireland over the entire period, and not just the past few days, although obviously he has been involved in the past few days and had conversations with the Taoiseach, rather like my conversations with the Irish Foreign Minister.

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point about the Good Friday agreement. We always need to remind ourselves that the Good Friday agreement has three strands, and we must resist the temptation that some people have to see the Good Friday agreement through simply one strand of north-south. The east-west and Northern Ireland strands are hugely important. One of the things we have to do is make sure we are delivering on the east-west part of the Good Friday agreement, so that the agreement is applied and working in all its strands.

Northern Ireland Protocol

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Alistair Carmichael

Wednesday 10th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD) [V]]

I have to say that it is far from clear to me exactly what the Government are trying to achieve in relation to the Northern Ireland protocol at the moment, but whatever it is, I have to think that it can only have been damaged by what we saw happen and the continued insistence on unilateral action here. May we just have a pause and a reset, and focus on using this grace period to achieve the things that will be necessary for the long-term creation of sustainable procedures? Primary among those, surely, must be the agreement of an EU-UK veterinary protocol. Will the Secretary of State update the House on what is happening on that—what barriers remain to an agreement of that sort and when we can expect to hear of its successful conclusion?

[Brandon Lewis]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We do want to work with the EU on a range of issues, and part of the issue around extending these grace periods was ensuring that we did not have a cliff edge and that we had that time and space for businesses to adapt and for us to work through some issues with the EU in a mutual way that works for everybody, as we have done this year. There were examples through January, on VAT on second-hand cars and other issues, where we worked through agreements with the EU that have worked to deliver on some of the issues for people in Northern Ireland, and we want to continue that way.

The reason we made the decision last week was purely that we were at this time-critical point. Because of the way supply lines and timelines work, if we had not made the decision last week, it would have been too late, even this week or next week, to prevent issues for supply lines into Northern Ireland. Going forward, we want to continue to work with the EU, including on issues such as that which the right hon. Gentleman outlined. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is working with his counterparts in the EU on those very issues now.

Patrick Finucane: Supreme Court Judgment

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Alistair Carmichael

Monday 30th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

We are absolutely committed to our obligations under article 2. That is why I have said that I will reassess this, following the work by the PSNI and the police ombudsman. On the question of scope, as a police-led investigation, this obviously has different connotations and different powers from those that Desmond de Silva had, and that is quite right. This is a matter for the PSNI, which is independent of the Government, and it will be for the Chief Constable to outline the remit and the process of the review. As I said, he intends to start that early next year. In fact, he told me that he hoped it would start in January. The PSNI will be engaging with the Finucane family around that work, and we will ensure that it does so ahead of the work beginning in early 2021.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

If I can accentuate the positive, I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State says that the question of a future public inquiry is not yet off the table. However, I have to tell him that his reliance on police and ombudsman inquiries as a justification would have a lot more weight if the case were new or recent. But it is 31 years plus since Pat Finucane was murdered. We have had the apologies for collusion, but as others have said, that can never be enough. Surely, those who seek truth and closure in other cases would find that their case for the same closure that the Finucane family want through a public inquiry was enhanced not diminished by holding a public inquiry.

[Brandon Lewis]

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman appreciates that every case is different and has to be assessed on its merits. That is how the judicial process and the police process work. It is right that we allow the police process to do its work. We have seen that evidence, including some evidence to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, from Operation Kenova, is bringing out information and understanding that was not there about things that happened many decades ago. There are good examples of new bits of information and evidence and of how evidence can be assessed differently as techniques have changed, which recent work has shown, particularly Operation Kenova. That is positive, but we will assess the matter after the processes are completed so that we continue to ensure that we fulfil our article 2 obligations.

Northern Ireland Protocol: UK Legal Obligations

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Alistair Carmichael

Tuesday 8th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

Yes. My hon. Friend makes a hugely important point. We should be clear that the UK internal market Bill and the Finance Bill are the last two legislative opportunities for us to put into law what we will need to do if the Joint Committee and the negotiations do not come to a satisfactory conclusion. It is nothing more than that. It means that we have a sensible and reasonable position and can say to people in Northern Ireland, “If that is what happens, this is what the situation will be in January.” It gives confidence and certainty to businesses and people in Northern Ireland that we will deliver for them.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

What authority do we have to criticise China for not keeping her side of the bargain under the joint declaration on Hong Kong if we are seen to approach our own treaty obligations to the European Union in this way?

[Brandon Lewis]

As I said earlier, specific issues in the protocol were always designed to be worked out through the Joint Committee. It is right that the Government are taking reasonable, sensible and limited actions to make sure we have that certainty for people in January should the Joint Committee and the withdrawal agreement negotiations for the free trade agreement not come to a satisfactory conclusion.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Alistair Carmichael

Wednesday 2nd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

The court was clear that the Executive, through their action of not designating, or refusing to designate, a Department, which was down to the Deputy First Minister, were acting illegally. The hon. Gentleman puts forward an interesting proposal, which I am sure that the Finance Ministry, in terms of wanting to make sure that Northern Ireland’s finances are well spent, will consider properly.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the effect on the Northern Ireland economy of the UK leaving the EU.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

What assessment he has made of the potential benefits to the Northern Ireland economy of the proposals set out in the Government’s July 2020 UK internal market White Paper.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)]

By the end of this year, the process of transition to our new relationship with the EU will be completed. I and colleagues across the Cabinet are determined to ensure that Northern Ireland benefits fully from the opportunities that that will bring.

[Mr Carmichael]

I am sure that all in business will welcome the announcement from the Secretary of State that there will be guidance given to all those trading in Northern Ireland by 1 November, but can he explain to the House how one formulates guidance for the implementation of a deal that has not yet been done, or will that guidance be written on the presumption that there will be no deal?

[Brandon Lewis]

As we did with the guidance that we outlined just before the House broke for the summer recess, we have done it in conjunction with our partners in businesses across Northern Ireland through the business engagement forum that we have put together. We are consulting with businesses about what they need to live on the protocol, and that protocol does give confidence to businesses about what will be in place next year.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Alistair Carmichael

Monday 20th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

9. If she will meet representatives from the Scottish fishing industry to discuss visas for crew members from outside the EEA.

[The Minister for Immigration (Brandon Lewis)]

I have already had meetings with some of my hon. Friends from Scotland, and I am meeting a number of Scottish MPs to discuss the issue this very week. I was due to meet representatives of the industry during my recent visit to Edinburgh, but they were sadly unable to attend on the day.

[Mr Carmichael]

I will take that as my invitation to the meeting. I suspect that the Minister has already heard about the problem, which is that the few visas available are transit visas, meaning that boats are pushing for the visas allowed—not where the fish are to be found. This leaves many crew members vulnerable and exposed to exploitation. Will the Minister speak to Border Force about its insistence that crew members should be classified as unskilled labour?

[Brandon Lewis]

It is a cross-party meeting, and I am happy to ensure that the right hon. Gentleman has the details about that meeting later this week. We are obviously looking at all these issues, particularly in the light of leaving the European Union and our future immigration policy, so I look forward to hearing the views of Scottish MPs.

Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Brandon Lewis and Alistair Carmichael

Ping Pong: House of Commons
Tuesday 10th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Brandon Lewis]

I noticed that the hon. Gentleman was trying to intervene before I made that comment. Hopefully he will be satisfied that we are looking to strengthen victims’ rights, but we want to do so in a proper, proportionate and appropriate way.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

Taking at face value the criticisms that the Minister levels with regard to the provisions for victims of crime, can he tell the House why the Government have not introduced amendments in lieu, instead of just asking us to disagree with the Lords amendments? After all, strengthening victims’ rights was in the Conservative manifesto at the most recent election; how much longer do we have to wait?