Brandon Lewis
Main Page: Brandon Lewis (Conservative - Great Yarmouth)Housing and Planning Bill (Eleventh sitting)
Brandon Lewis Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister for Housing and Planning (Brandon Lewis)
Welcome back to the Committee, Mr Gray. I look forward to serving under your chairmanship for the rest of this week and potentially the rest of our consideration of the Bill.
Amendment 148 and amendment 151, which is for London, would require housing associations to adhere to strict rules when replacing property sold under the voluntary right to buy and, indeed, building those extra homes we all want, including rules on how much can be spent and the type, tenure and location of the properties. That strikes me as the worst kind of command and control, “Westminster knows best” approach.
I find it interesting that one of the authors of the amendment is someone who has described the Bill as the end of localism, yet here we have the most anti-localist amendment I have seen for some considerable time. It goes much further than the right to buy ever has in dictating what delivery bodies can do. The hon. Member for Harrow West may be happy to extend freedoms and flexibility to his friends on councils, but housing associations have proved themselves to be consistently far more adept at responding to the challenge of delivering new housing supply, and were largely responsible for exceeding the target of 160,000 new affordable homes under the previous Government.
Our approach is very different from the Opposition’s. We have ensured through the deal with the sector that decisions are made at the most appropriate level by professional organisations that we trust. Nationally, we have ensured that for every home sold under the deal, one extra new home will be built, thereby doubling housing supply. What type of home and where it should be are decisions that will and should be taken by housing associations in the light of local conditions and need, which are covered in local plans. That is what true localism means, and I hope the hon. Member for City of Durham will withdraw the amendment.
Dr Blackman-Woods
May I, too, say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray?
Dr Blackman-Woods
I am an absolute optimist. Mr Gray.
Once again, I am disappointed by the Minister’s response. I am not sure how it is that Westminster can know best when forcing unwilling housing associations to subject their stock to the right to buy, but it is not okay for us to want to ensure—
Brandon Lewis
I emphasise, as I did this morning, that it is a voluntary agreement that the housing associations put to the Government. It is localism.
Dr Blackman-Woods
My understanding from what the Minister said this morning was that, whether or not housing associations had voted for the voluntary deal, they would all be subject to putting their stock up for right to buy. My question to the Minister is why it is not okay for us to want to ensure that enough affordable and, in particular, social rented homes exist for the most vulnerable in our communities following the exercise of right to buy. I am sorry that he did not engage with the Opposition’s genuine concern that without like-for-like, one-for-one replacement of the same tenure, we will lose greatly needed social rented stock. That is what commentators and housing associations are telling us. On that basis, I will divide the Committee on the amendment.
Brandon Lewis
We are alive to the concerns about the fact that more and more homes are being bought as buy to lets, which is why, as my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough outlined, in the spending review the Chancellor introduced a new rate of stamp duty that is 3% higher for the purchase of buy to lets. That builds on the fiscal changes made in the Budget to mortgage rate relief and sends a clear message about the Government’s direction of travel. We are doing work on a wider scale to ensure we get the balance right between people who want to own their own home and those who are involved in buy to lets.
Let me be clear about our objectives. We want to ensure that private investors, especially those who are not resident in this country, do not distort the market or squeeze out families and prevent them from buying and owning a home of their own. We are not, nor should we be, hindering the life chances and social mobility of individuals who want to use the opportunity of owning a home to move on and up. It would be wholly unfair to restrict housing association tenants who want to take the opportunity to buy a home of their own.
Tenants who bought their home under the voluntary right-to-buy scheme used the freedom available to all other home owners, including those who used the existing right-to-buy scheme under previous Governments, both Labour and Conservative. That scheme contains no restriction on letting, so it would be unfair to impose one on housing association tenants. A restriction on reselling or letting their home would limit their ability to move for work or family reasons. We do not think that is reasonable or necessary, given that the agreement includes a commitment to deliver extra homes though new supply. I hope that the hon. Lady will withdraw her amendment.
Dr Blackman-Woods
I have heard what the Minister has to say. The Opposition are aware that the autumn statement contained such changes. Why is it unfair to people who purchase under right to buy to restrict who they can sell their property to for a relatively short period, but it is not unfair to insist that housing remains for people who desperately need it at an affordable rent? We know that moving such properties into the private rented sector at market rents will put them out of the reach of many people if additional money does not come out of the public purse. I would like some time to reflect on the Minister’s response. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 56 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 57
Grants by Greater London Authority
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr Thomas
I would like to use this stand part debate to ask the Minister a number of questions, both general and specific. First, will he consider what will happen to the grant to housing associations in London if they are unable to provide evidence of a start on site within the three-year deadline to replace a home? Will any of that returned grant be directed to house building in the local authority area in some other way—perhaps given to the council or to another housing association?
What estimates have Ministers made of the number of portable discounts that are likely to have to be offered in London? That will affect the number of grants that will have to be made as well. It would be useful to hear from the Minister on that question. I return to the specific example I gave of a housing association that operates in a number of areas across the country. I bring to the Minister’s attention the example of Home Group, which has helped drive the refurbishment of the Rayners Lane estate in my constituency. It will of course be covered by the voluntary right to buy. If it is given grant, what provision is there that the Home Group might offer new properties in Harrow, as opposed to Newcastle or other parts of the north or the south-east where it has properties? What specific efforts are the Government making to ensure that, if there is not like for like, as we discussed on clause 56, there will at least be another property available in the Harrow area to replace one that might be sold off to a tenant?
On the financing of these grants, the Minister will be aware that there has been a debate within the housing world about whether there are alternative financing mechanisms for these grants, instead of just the option in the Bill of the forced sale of high-value council housing. Lord Kerslake and the hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson), the Mayor of London, have suggested that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might want to replace the cash discount that sales are offering with an equity loan, as the Chancellor is doing already. It would be good to hear whether Ministers have completely rejected that notion, or indeed the conversations they have had with Lord Kerslake and the hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip.
Finally, the Minister may be aware that the National Housing Federation recently sent around a briefing that clearly indicates that it is concerned that the drafting of this and the previous clause does not fit the terms of the deal that has been done within the Government. I invite him to consider the National Housing Federation’s request for a change in the language in clause 57—not now, of course, but, if he is willing to reflect on it, on Report.
Brandon Lewis
I will stick to the point behind the clause. With regard to some of the wider points that the hon. Gentleman has raised, I direct him to chapter 2 of the voluntary agreement with the National Housing Federation, which covers this fully. Clause 57 reflects the grant-making powers just discussed under clause 56, but specifically for the Greater London Authority. It is worth briefly explaining that this is because we want to ensure that the Government have the ability to compensate housing associations for the discounts to their tenants who buy their home in London under the terms of the voluntary agreement. It will allow the Greater London Authority to administer the process and make the payments. The clause is necessary because the Homes and Communities Agency does not have the locus to make payments in relation to housing association properties sold in London. I am confident that the National Housing Federation is happy that we will be fulfilling our side of the bargain, but we will continue our ongoing dialogue with it at all times.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 57 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 58
Monitoring
Mr Thomas
I beg to move amendment 188, in clause 58, page 24, line 22, at end insert
“which will include the use of local occupancy clauses as defined by section 157 of the 1985 Housing Act”.
This amendment would ensure anyone subsequently buying a former housing association property sold under the right to buy would have to have lived or worked in the housing authority area where the property is located for three years or more prior to purchase.
I suggest that Ministers might want to look back at section 157 of the Housing Act 1985 and extend the use of local occupancy clauses in rural areas under the council right-to-buy scheme to the housing association right-to-buy scheme and, in so doing, extend it to the whole country. The Minister might or might not be aware that under the terms of section 157, people have to have lived or worked in an area, usually in a national park, for three years before they can buy certain properties, usually ex-council homes. The effect of that requirement is to lower slightly the price at which homes are sold. Typically, although it depends on the area in the national park, a reduction of between 5% and 20% can be on offer to someone who has lived or worked in an area. That clearly increases the chances of people being able to stay within their communities and achieve their aspiration of owning their own home.
Given the scale at which house prices are rising, such a sensible situation for rural areas, particularly national parks, might usefully be extended to London. With this probing amendment, I am asking the Minister whether he has considered offering a similar provision in the Bill. If he has not, will he do so? Specifically, might he consider it for an area such as London, or other urban areas where house prices are rising fast? I gently suggest that this would not affect his overall objective of extending home ownership, and it would not stop the extension of right to buy; it would effectively create a sub-market within the housing market and make it slightly more affordable for a small number of additional people to get on to the housing ladder. He will understand the concern. Given the public nature of our debates, I recognise that he had to robustly defend the price of starter homes, but I am sure he will recognise the concern that they will not be affordable, particularly in London, to as many people as they might be.
Local occupancy clauses would help extend the ability of more tenants, once a housing association property has been sold for the first time, to have a chance of getting on to the property ladder by buying a former housing association property, albeit at a slightly discounted rate.
Brandon Lewis
On the hon. Gentleman’s closing remarks and his point about starter homes, I remind him that both in evidence and here in Committee, although perhaps he was not here, we made it very clear—this is about a robust defence—that the average price for a first-time buyer, the group of people who will benefit from starter homes, is considerably below the average price for a home in London and more widely. We had a range of examples, but I will not test the Chair’s patience by going through them again.
We appreciate that various measures are in place under the existing right to buy, such as properties, if sold within a certain period, being offered back to the landlord they were originally bought from. We are working closely with the sector on the detailed implementation of the scheme, including such issues. I appreciate the spirit with which the hon. Gentleman moved the amendment, but it would mean that homeowners who had bought their property under a voluntary right-to-buy arrangement will be restricted with regard to whom they can sell their property. It would make it a requirement that they can only sell on to someone who has lived or worked locally for three or more years before purchase.
Mr Thomas
I appreciate how the Minister is indulging the spirit in which I moved the amendment. May I gently suggest that the policing for a local occupancy clause already exists, in a sense, because it already applies in rural areas and, in particular, in national parks? Few national park authorities report any significant problems with the measure at the moment. Might that not encourage him to take a slightly more positive view of my suggestion?
Brandon Lewis
I appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, but we are talking about a somewhat different scale from what the amendment would introduce. Tenants who become homeowners as a result of the right to buy are exactly the same as tenants who buy on the open market; the difference is the concern about the loss of stock, which is clearly being addressed anyway through the programme to build new homes, delivering a new-build property for every property sold. Moreover, protections will be in place through housing associations having the discretion not to sell properties, particularly in rural areas—the example he gave—where to do so would not be in the interests of the local community, as the voluntary deal outlines. I hope that he will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Mr Thomas
I moved the amendment in the spirit of probing the Minister’s view. I gently suggest that any restriction on a housing association tenant selling might slightly restrict the market, but in practice I suspect that it will not do so dramatically. Potentially, the amendment would have allowed not only housing association tenants to access the ambition of owning their own home, but the Government and the whole House to ensure that those who live in communities not on high incomes had a little more chance of getting on to the property ladder. However, it was probing, and on that basis I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr Thomas
I hope not to detain the Committee long, because we had a debate last week on co-operative housing in the context of the clauses relating to custom and self-build housebuilding. I drew the Committee’s attention to the definition of “community-led housing”, which is encapsulated in new schedule 1. Amendment 92 would specifically require the regulator of social housing to protect housing co-operatives and other community-led housing. It would be a gentle additional requirement in the legislation to ensure that, notwithstanding the voluntary deal offered, housing co-operatives are given a little extra protection.
I alluded to this previously, but it is perhaps worth setting out in a little more detail. I think in particular of the housing co-operatives in the Coin Street area on the south bank of the river Thames. They are all registered housing providers, so technically they are all housing associations, but all their properties are part of a housing co-operative. It would therefore be very difficult for a housing association that is also a housing co-operative to offer a portable discount. Under the terms of amendment 92, the regulator would have a duty to police the insistence that housing co-operatives are properly protected.
New clause 11 focuses on tenant management organisations. A major series of requests for a tenant management organisation that is also a housing association to allow tenants to buy their properties could threaten the viability of the tenant management organisation. Surely it should be for the tenants who are running the tenant management organisation to decide for themselves the future of their organisation. Surely it is not for Government to dictate to a body that is set up and running its own devices how it should operate in the future. It is for the tenant management organisation to make its own rules.
I hope that the Minister will recognise that the amendment offers an opportunity to offer a little more protection to housing co-operatives and specific protection to tenant management organisations. It would not place an onerous requirement on the regulator, but it would help to ensure that the National Housing Federation’s commitment is captured in the Bill, resulting in additional protection.
Brandon Lewis
If new clause 11 were accepted, housing associations could not implement the voluntary right-to-buy deal where tenant management organisations had been set up and registered with the Homes and Communities Agency. It would also prevent such organisations from accepting payments made by the Secretary of State in respect of right-to-buy discounts.
Amendment 92 would require the regulator of social housing to monitor and report where a housing association had disregarded the provisions of new clause 11 and operated the voluntary right to buy in properties where a tenant management organisation existed. The monitoring and reporting role would also apply to community-led housing providers—a new category of housing association that the amendment would introduce in an associated new schedule.
Let me be clear: tenant management organisations are not registered providers. They are management organisations, which will be subsidiaries of a registered provider. They are not and cannot be registered with the Homes and Communities Agency, because they cannot own stock and so are not landlords. No grant funding to cover the cost of the discount would be made to such organisations under the voluntary right-to-buy deal.
The landlord-tenant relationship is with the property-owning landlord—the registered provider—and the tenant would exercise their right to buy against that landlord. The amendments do not quite fit into that landscape. Tenant management organisations and other community-led organisations do play an important role in helping tenants to play an active part in the management of their homes, and often in wider community initiatives as well, but they are not part of the right-to-buy arrangements.
If there is concern about having different tenures, with social tenants and owner-occupiers being part of a tenant management organisation, I must say that there is no reason to believe that tenants and owners could not come together in that way. If, however, the intent behind the new clause is to create a loophole in the implementation of the voluntary right to buy, whereby the setting up of a tenant management organisation would in itself mean that the voluntary right to buy could not operate, that would run counter to our manifesto commitment to extend the right to buy. I am sure that that is not the hon. Gentleman’s intention.
Our aim is to ensure that social tenants can access available home ownership opportunities regardless of their landlord. It would be wholly unfair to tenants who want to take the opportunity to buy a home of their own if they were prevented from doing so merely because of the existence of a tenant management organisation. The voluntary right to buy deal contains protections that allow housing associations discretion not to sell properties that are important to their communities and clients. The changes are therefore unnecessary and, I would argue, counterproductive, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment.
Mr Thomas
I hear the Minister’s concerns, in particular about new clause 11 on tenant management organisations. Let me reassure him: no one who is committed to good governance likes the creation of loopholes, and that is the last thing I would want to be accused of. One wants consistency and clarity in all legislation.
I intend to come back later to some of the wider concerns of the housing co-op and community housing movement about pay to stay, which is part of the reason for tabling new schedule 1. There is real concern about the additional administration requirements that housing co-ops will incur as a result of the pay-to-stay requirements. However, these were probing amendments, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw them.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Brandon Lewis
As outlined, the amendment would require the Secretary of State and the Mayor of London to publish an annual report and impact assessment that sets out how many housing association properties have been sold off and the impact of that on homelessness in London. The hon. Gentleman outlined the backdrop and, while I will not test your patience by going too far outside the Bill’s scope, Mr Gray, let me say that we have increased funding: for example, funding for the discretionary housing payment will be £800 million over the course of the Parliament, which is a 40% increase.
We are determined not to return to the bad old days when homelessness was roughly double what it is today. We recognise the importance of having a mechanism to monitor and report on the effectiveness of the voluntary agreement, so the clause will allow for the collection and publication of statistics on housing association sales and new builds under the voluntary agreement. Detailed statistics on homelessness are already collected for all authorities, including figures for the number of households accepted as homeless and the reasons for the loss of their last settled home. That will allow us to monitor any changes to the homelessness situation in Greater London and indeed elsewhere. I therefore hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw his amendment.
Mr Thomas
I am not wild about the Minister’s answer. I am yet to see the Government propose a significant package of measures to help those on low incomes and those who are on the temporary housing register in temporary accommodation and see no immediate sign of councils or housing associations being able to help them.
Brandon Lewis
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s generosity in giving way. I hope he recognises that under this Government the amount of time people spend in temporary accommodation has been reduced by at least seven months.
Mr Thomas
The experience in Harrow has been a rising number of people in need of temporary accommodation and increasing concern about its quality. It would be sensible for the Minister to focus on this issue in a little more detail than the Conservatives, and his Department under the Secretary of State’s leadership, are duly doing. I am tempted to press the amendment to a vote.
Brandon Lewis
I beg to move amendment 178, in clause 59, page 25, line 5, after “Consent” insert—
“in respect of a disposal of land in England”.
This amendment limits the amendment to section 133 of the Housing Act 1988 to disposals of land in England.
Brandon Lewis
Clause 59 amends section 133 of the Housing Act 1988 and section 174 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to allow for disposals by way of sales under the extended right to buy by private registered providers to be subject to a general consent of the regulator of social housing, as exercised under the power in section 172 of the 2008 Act. Amendments 178 and 179 are minor and technical ones, to ensure that the changes apply only to disposal of land in England, as housing policy is devolved.
Mr Thomas
Has the Minister had any conversations with the authorities in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales about why they might not be indulging in a similar set of proposals? I understand that in Scotland the right-to-buy period is being cancelled. Is the Minister aware of the situation in Scotland and what has led the Scottish National party to go down that road? Has he any indication about whether the Northern Ireland Assembly might follow the example of his party and his Government and introduce it over there?
Brandon Lewis
I suspect that, to an extent, I might be moving somewhat outside my remit, as these are devolved matters. I am happy to reiterate the debate that was had on the Floor of the House with Members of the Scottish National party making the case against right to buy. I made the same point to them as I made to Labour in Wales when they were looking at right to buy: I do not understand why they are so against giving tenants in their area the opportunity to become homeowners.
As I outlined on the Floor of the House, it might be that in Scotland, as in England, between 1997 and 2010 the Labour Party and the SNP did not do the job of building the extra homes they should have built, using the money from right to buy to build extra homes in the way that we are doing. They had a similar situation to Labour’s 170 homes sold for just one built. That is why it is so important that this voluntary deal is taken forward in the way that the reinvigorated right to buy has been in England, and we have at least one home built for every home sold. I encourage colleagues in the devolved nations to look at that model, going forward, rather than the previous Labour model.
Amendment 178 agreed to.
Amendment made: 179, in clause 59, page 25, line 8, after “Consent” insert
“in respect of a disposal of land in England”—(Brandon Lewis.)
This amendment limits the amendment to section 174 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to disposals of land in England.
Mr Thomas
Exactly, Mr Gray. It would be outwith the terms of the debate. I will, however, gently ask the Minister again whether any estimate has been made of the number of portable discounts that will be offered in London. Will any restrictions be placed on portable discounts? Again, that is a question worth asking. For example, do they need to be on homes in the same local area? I hope that he might be willing to answer those questions rather than fob the Committee off.
The Chair
Order. Before the Minister commences, I suspect that we are just about to have a Division in the main Chamber. When that occurs, we will suspend the Committee for 15 minutes for the first vote and an additional 10 minutes each for any further votes. I hope the bell will ring; we are waiting for it. It will happen any second now, so I think we can anticipate it and suspend the Committee for 15 minutes, followed by 10 minutes for each subsequent vote. [Interruption.] Ah. There we are.
The Chair
I remind the Committee that we were discussing amendment 152 to clause 59. The hon. Member for City of Durham had proposed it and I was about to call the Minister to respond.
Brandon Lewis
Thank you, Mr Gray. I think Hansard will show where the hot air has been coming from for much of today.
Amendment 152 would limit the portability of discounts offered under the voluntary right to buy to cases where this was practical in terms of availability of suitable properties for sale and of the vacancy timescales. Amendment 153, just to refresh our memories, would require properties offered with a portable discount to be in an area agreed with the tenant, of a similar size and quality, and for there to be an appeal mechanism. From the comments made before we broke to vote, it was clear that the Opposition were trying to put into legislation arrangements that we have negotiated in a voluntary deal with the sector.
Hon. Members asked for details of where these things are printed. The hon. Member for City of Durham quoted from what I think she said was something sent round by the National Housing Federation. Actually, she quoted directly from the voluntary agreement that is published on the National Housing Federation website, chapter 1 of which very much outlines those points. That is backed up by a written ministerial statement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government on 12 October. Housing associations have made it clear that they agree, as part of the deal, that where a housing association exercises its discretion not to sell a home, the housing association will provide an alternative from its own stock. The rest Members can read in chapter 1.
Mr Thomas
Very specifically, on the Coin Street example I gave, where all the properties are part of the housing co-operative, will they have to give portable discount or not? I recognise that they are excluded from right to buy in general terms, but are they excluded in this context from having to offer a portable discount?
Brandon Lewis
Again, I highly recommend that the hon. Gentleman read the proposal from the National Housing Federation. It has a clear table, headed in bold, “Examples of circumstances where housing associations may exercise discretion over sales” in which co-operatives are listed.
Housing associations have agreed in the deal that there will be a proposal for an appeal mechanism where a tenant is not happy with the alternative property on offer. The hon. Member for City of Durham asked if it would be a genuinely independent process, but I am sure she was not trying to question the independence of the regulator and it is the regulator to which the voluntary agreement relates. To suggest that the housing associations will not deliver on the terms of the agreement takes us back to the problem the Opposition appear to be having with the concept that housing associations are professional organisations that we trust and that will honour their agreement with the Government. After all, it was their proposal. I do not believe that they will fail to honour the agreement, which is why I do not accept the amendments.
Brandon Lewis
As I have outlined, this is an agreement that the National Housing Federation proposed to Government. We have accepted it and will deliver our part of the bargain so that they can deliver their side, and we trust them to do that. The amendments imply, again, that the Opposition do not trust housing associations to take up their side of the bargain. I simply do not accept that; we do trust them.
Amendment 153 seeks to limit the type of property that can be offered to tenants under portability arrangements and again seems to limit the opportunities of tenants to own their own home. What about tenants who have an expanding family and need larger accommodation, or are looking to downsize as the family moves away, or to make home ownership more affordable? We do not agree with the Opposition’s insistence on imposing unfair and unnecessary restrictions on them. Where tenants are able to use their discount to purchase an alternative property it would entirely be at their discretion whether to take up that discount and portability. The amendments are unnecessary.
Dr Blackman-Woods
As I said earlier, these are largely probing amendments seeking to elicit more information from the Minister about how the portability mechanism might work in practice. To my knowledge, we did not accuse housing associations of failing to deliver on the voluntary agreement or failing to have a regulator in place. We simply sought more information.
If I could drag us all back to reality for a moment, housing associations did not wake up one morning on 23 September or thereabouts and think, “Gosh, we must go and have a voluntary agreement with the Government on the right to buy. Let’s see if we can catch them just before the Conservative party conference and see if we can agree something.” It was within a context of the Government saying, “Come up with a voluntary deal, housing associations, or we will put something on statute.”
Brandon Lewis
I appreciate we are some way off the scope of the Bill, Mr Gray, but could I respond to a very direct point?
Brandon Lewis
I will test your patience a moment to suggest that the hon. Lady would surely acknowledge that perhaps the housing associations saw what was in the Conservative party manifesto, appreciated that we had a mandate to deliver that, actually wanted to deliver ownership for their residents and tenants, and therefore wanted to work with the Government to do so.
The Chair
Order. I would much rather that you did not go too far down that particular track. We are reserving our comments for the amendments we are considering. Dr Blackman-Woods.
Dr Blackman-Woods
I beg to move amendment 154, in clause 59, page 25, line 8, at end insert—
‘( ) The discount should remain in perpetuity.”
This amendment would ensure that homes sold under the Right to Buy remain as discounted housing in perpetuity.
I might be able to anticipate what the Minister will say about the amendment, given the extensive discussion we had on a similar matter regarding starter homes. Nevertheless, it is important that the Opposition seek to get more information from the Minister about why properties sold under right to buy can attract a discount for purchase, and why it is not possible for that purchase to remain in perpetuity, so the number of homes lost to home ownership under the right to buy could be replaced in a very easy way: as somebody gets a discount, buys the home, sells it and moves on to another property that they might buy on the open market, the property they are leaving would attract a discount again.
Millions of homes have been lost in the social rented sector through right to buy, and the amendment would ensure their ongoing availability. It also means that the discount on a right to buy property would be a cheaper way to ensure that homes were available for low-cost home ownership, and probably a much cheaper way to fund the replacement than any of the other measures that we have considered. However, this is a straightforward amendment asking why we do not consider how we might provide a discount in perpetuity. I would be interested to hear from the Minister why he thinks it is not a good idea.
Brandon Lewis
I appreciate the hon. Lady’s opening remarks and her thoughts on what we might say, but I must respond to the amendment as written. Interestingly, it highlights and reconfirms the fact that the Opposition are keen to ensure that housing associations do not receive full market value for their properties; they are seeking to remove that possibility from the individual tenant. The other option is that they want the Government to pay compensation over and over again every time the property is sold. I might not be overly surprised that they have a cavalier attitude to public money, but I doubt that that is genuinely what they intend; at least, I hope it is not.
If the intention behind the clause is to protect stock, I say once again that stock will be built up, as extra homes will be built as a result of the measures. The amendment as drafted makes no sense. It would be either deeply unfair or deeply profligate, depending which way it is read. I hope that the hon. Lady will withdraw it.
Dr Blackman-Woods
If the Minister is absolutely certain in his assertions about the waste of public money, perhaps we could do a cost-benefit analysis of bringing houses back through the route in the amendment rather than completely replacing them and rebuilding elsewhere. Again, this is a probing amendment. It would help all of us in our deliberations on these clauses if we had had more information about the extension of right to buy to housing associations and how it might work in practice so that replacement continues.
I hear what the Minister says, but so far I have not seen any evidence to back up the points that he is making. I do not want to press the amendment to a vote at this point, but it would be extremely helpful to have the information to back up the points that he has made in his response. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr Jackson
The hon. Gentleman tempts me, but I would not want to incur the wrath of our Chair on this occasion. That particular happy hunting ground and battle royal of pay to stay are before us in the future. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is arming himself metaphorically and intellectually for that battle but, for the time being, I decry this amendment. It is unnecessary. Checks and balances exist to make sure that the proper procedures are followed to ensure that there is no criminal activity, especially money laundering, in the right-to-buy process for housing associations.
Brandon Lewis
The voluntary right-to-buy deal sets out the work done jointly by the Government and the sector to develop an efficient implementation process. This process would include measures that exist in the current right-to-buy scheme, such as eligibility tests and measures to limit fraudulent purchases—not the least among all the points raised by my hon. Friends earlier.
In the hon. Lady’s closing remarks, she made what was almost an aside about checking whether extending right to buy is—I think I quote her correctly—a “waste of money”. I say to her that perhaps she should meet people such as Wendy, whom I met in Liverpool on Friday, and others who have been able to take advantage of right to buy over the past few decades and support the reinvigorated scheme. I am getting messages from people who look forward to being able to benefit from the extended right-to-buy scheme. They will tell the hon. Lady that home ownership is not by any means a waste of money, nor is the fact that the Government will make sure that housing associations receive the full market value to use to deliver new homes.
Dr Blackman-Woods
My point was not that the right to buy and discounts are a waste of money but that, if it went to somebody who was money laundering or was, in some other way, not fit to get the right-to-buy discount, that would be a waste of money.
Brandon Lewis
All these checks and balances will be developed as part of the detailed design of the scheme currently under way and will indeed be informed by the pilot schemes announced by the Chancellor in the spending review. It is not necessary or appropriate to include them in the Bill. The clauses in the Bill are those that are necessary to make the deal work, they are not needed to duplicate the deal. I hope that the hon. Lady will withdraw the amendment.
Dr Blackman-Woods
I said that this was largely a probing amendment to see whether there was support from the Minister for giving guidance to housing associations on the sorts of eligibility tests that they might wish to carry out. It is interesting how Government Members have sought to categorise this as just further regulation when what we are really seeking to do on behalf of housing associations is ensure that they can carry out necessary checks to make sure that money is being used widely. At the risk of boring myself, I feel I have to reiterate, yet again, that the Opposition are not against the right to buy as a principle, we are simply deeply concerned and opposed to the way that this particular scheme is being rolled out with so little information in the public domain. As the amendment was largely probing, I beg to ask leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 59, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 60 and 61 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 62
Payments to Secretary of State
Brandon Lewis
As we know, amendment 186 would amend clause 62 to provide for the Mayor of London, after consultation with the London Assembly, to make a determination that would require London boroughs to make the payment of receipts raised by the sale of high-value assets to the Mayor for each financial year.
Amendment 144 would require the Secretary of State to seek the consent of the Mayor of London and the London Assembly before a determination for each local authority’s payment is sent to the local authority.
I will go through the potential impact of the amendments separately. The first would amount to a London ring fence—that is clear from what has been outlined. We have also been clear from the start that our manifesto commitment on extending right-to-buy discounts to housing association tenants will apply across England. To enable that to happen, we will need to ensure that all receipts generated from the sale of high-value assets are used across the country.
During the debate on Second Reading, I listened to a number of hon. Members who represent seats in London. Their contributions rightly stressed the importance of housing in London. The current Mayor has been focused on that, and I share his determination to deliver homes for Londoners. That is why I am working closely with my hon. Friends—for example, my hon. Friends the Members for Richmond Park and for Wimbledon—to ensure that we are able to secure a sensible approach to delivering the housing that London needs. My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park outlined that very clearly and passionately on Second Reading. My hon. Friends recognise the importance of our meeting the manifesto commitment, which is exactly what people elected the Government to do. I recognise the importance of working with my hon. Friends, the local authorities and indeed the LGA more widely.
That leads me to the point of the second amendment, which would give the Mayor and the Assembly the ability to block the Secretary of State from making a determination in respect of London local authorities. Effectively, it would be a right of veto over the Government’s implementation of policy that was contained in our manifesto. I have the utmost respect for the current Mayor and for my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park—the next Conservative Mayor of London. Let us be clear: neither of them has expressed any interest in the Mayor or the London Assembly having any such power. I can only see this as mischief-making on the part of the Opposition.
Mr Thomas
I trust that the Minister will answer the question I posed about why he is not interested in the proposal of the hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip for an extension of the Chancellor’s equity release scheme to fund the housing association sell-off, which would obviate the need for the forced sale of council homes.
Brandon Lewis
I will carry on focusing on the amendment that the hon. Gentleman has been speaking to. It would not only add an additional bureaucratic step to the process, but would mean that we want to give those bodies the ability to frustrate the Government in delivering an election mandate, which is something that I am sure the hon. Gentleman would not want to encourage anybody to do. I certainly know that my hon. Friends are not trying to do that.
As provided for in clause 62, all local authorities will be consulted on any draft determination before it is finalised, either on an individual basis or through their representative body. The details of determinations for a London local authority do not require the scrutiny of the Mayor or the London Assembly. Housing that is excluded will be set out in secondary legislation. The Department is engaging widely with local authorities and other stakeholders. Indeed, I met the leader of Harrow Council just last week along with others from across the parties. No decisions have been made yet about types of housing that could be excluded or cases when housing would not be considered as becoming vacant.
As part of our process of updating data on local authority stock, we are collecting information on the purpose of the stock held in order to understand more about the types of housing that the local authorities own. That will inform decisions on housing that will be excluded from this chapter. I welcome the thoughts of the Committee on what housing to consider excluding, and I am fully committed to finding an outcome for London that ensures that more homes are delivered. That is very much the focus of the current Mayor of London, my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip, and, indeed, of my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park. I will continue to work with all parties to achieve that.
I put on the record my thanks to the GLA and the London boroughs, across parties, for their ongoing engagement with me and my Department. I recognise the importance of ensuring that London local authorities play a key part in the process, which the amendments would frustrate. I hope the hon. Gentleman withdraws the amendment.
Mr Thomas
I note that the Minister failed to deal with the issue of alternatives that would obviate the need for the forced sale of council homes. I am disappointed that he is not willing to reflect on the proposals of the hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip, of the noble Lord Kerslake or, indeed, of the Local Government Association as to how the housing association sell-off might be financed. The amendments were tabled in the spirit of the concern that every right-to-buy sale and, therefore, every sale of a council property, has not led to a like-for-like replacement. I mention again, in passing, Shelter’s figure that only one in nine properties sold under the right to buy have been replaced with a new start on site.
Brandon Lewis
I am sure the hon. Gentleman was almost waiting, knowing that I would want to intervene. I remind him again, as I did earlier, that Shelter’s figures do not give a direct relationship. Actually, the numbers in London are almost two for one, taking account of the fact that local authorities have three years to build those extra homes.
Mr Thomas
I simply look at the overall figures for the right to buy—the scale of the difference between the number of right-to-buy sales since 2012-13, and the number of starts on site and acquisitions. There is a huge gap between those figures. If the Government were to achieve their current ambition of a one-for-one replacement, there would need to be some 22,000 starts or acquisitions by the end of 2017 to match the sale of council homes since 2012-13. That is equivalent to 2,300 per quarter. In the first quarter of 2015-16, there were just 307 starts, which suggests that we are some way from achieving even the Government’s target of one-for-one replacement. With that scepticism in mind, I cannot, sadly, accept the Minister’s assurances on this occasion, and I intend to urge the Committee to support my amendment.