Europol

Brandon Lewis Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2016 General Committees

[The Minister for Policing and the Fire Service (Brandon Lewis)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I will take a few minutes to outline, and hopefully deal with, some of the issues that my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome has raised and then we will have time for questions about anything else.

We are in a modern interconnected world where organised crime is increasingly international and does not respect borders. In that context, we can hopefully all agree that Europol provides a valuable service to the UK, both within the EU and in collaboration with non-EU partners. After all, we must remember that the United States has a substantial partnership with Europol. Until exit negotiations are concluded, the UK obviously remains a full member of the EU, with all the rights and obligations that membership entails. We seek to opt into the new regulation in line with our right to do so as an EU member state, and that is part of “business as usual” activity while we remain an EU member.

Operationally, Europol is a vital tool in helping UK law enforcement agencies to co-ordinate investigations involving cross-border serious and organised crime, to keep our public safe. Opting in means that as long as we remain a member of the European Union we can continue to benefit from the co-operation and the operational advantages of being a member of Europol. We would not be able to do that as a non-participating member state. Not opting into the new measure while we remain in the EU could risk our being ejected from Europol, which would have serious consequences for our law enforcement operations.

As my hon. Friend rightly pointed out, this is not the first time that Parliament has examined the regulation. Many will recall the original opt-in debate in March 2013, and my hon. Friend is right that the general consensus at that time was that although we supported the overall aim and the objectives of Europol—and we made it clear that we did—certain elements of the draft text were not acceptable and the Government would not take the risk of opting into an unacceptable text. We had two main concerns about that text, first, that it would interfere with the operational independence of UK policing and, secondly, that it would increase the UK’s obligation to provide data to Europol, even when such provision conflicted with national security or endangered ongoing investigations or an individual’s safety. As such, we decided not to opt in at that point, at the start of negotiations, but we made it clear that a post-adoption opt-in would be considered, if we were able to address those concerns in negotiations.

During the negotiations, we worked hard with other EU members to do just that. The UK and like-minded member states successfully negotiated a much more balanced regulation, which maintains the status quo regarding Europol’s relationship with member states. That is explicitly set out in article 3 of the regulation:

“Europol shall not apply coercive measures in carrying out its tasks”,

clearly dealing with the first point. The Government believe that the new regulation defends national interest while allowing Europol to consolidate its position in supporting member states to combat serious cross-border crime and terrorism.

I will set out what the new legislation does. In broad terms, the new regulation maintains the existing relationship between member states and Europol while updating the way in which Europol operates and its relationship with the EU institutions. The new regulation expands Europol’s tasks in a number of positive ways. It sets out a clear mandate for the EU internet referrals unit, which is based at Europol and replicates the UK’s approach to tackling online terrorist propaganda. Importantly, it does not expand Europol’s work in a manner that would lead to competence issues.

The new regulation establishes a framework for joint investigative and operational actions between member states’ competent authorities, for example via joint investigation teams. The framework supports and strengthens the actions of member states. It also ensures that we retain control, as Europol would need our consent to undertake any actions in the UK. Europol’s capacity to undertake operational actions is likely to be helpful in regard to its role in tackling organised immigration crime via joint operational team Mare.

The new regulation formalises co-operation with EU bodies, and the provision of information and support to EU crisis management structures, such as for the migration crisis in the Mediterranean. It also clarifies the mandate of the existing European cybercrime centre as a centre

“of specialised expertise for combating certain types of crime”.

That is welcome, as we in the UK participate in the joint cybercrime action taskforce.

Much of the new legislation is about putting existing practice on a comprehensive legal footing. Europol’s remit remains squarely focused on enhancing law-enforcement co-operation between member states. As I have outlined, Europol’s actions remain fundamentally in support of member states, not the other way round, which means that Europol will continue to add value to UK law enforcement without in any way reducing national control of law enforcement-activity in the UK. I suspect that that is why every single police chief I have met throughout the country, along with the National Police Chiefs Council, has been explicit about their desire that we should ensure that we took the opportunity to opt in.

As I have set out, Europol is a vital tool to help UK law-enforcement agencies co-ordinate investigations in cross-border serious and organised crime. Our operational partners, such as the National Crime Agency, have made it clear that they value our continued membership of Europol while the UK remains in the EU. The deputy director-general of the National Crime Agency made that clear in his evidence to the EU Home Affairs Sub-Committee in October. The NPCC lead, Sara Thornton, has also been clear about that.

We cannot, however, ignore the fact that we are leaving the EU. My hon. Friend therefore asks a fair question: why opt into the new regulation now? Opting in means that, for as long as we remain a member of the EU, we can continue to benefit from the co-operation and operational advantages of being a member of Europol. Failure to opt into the new measure might risk our being ejected from Europol which, in my view, is something we should seek to avoid while we remain in the EU. My hon. Friend mentioned the experience of Denmark, but I might add that Denmark still has hurdles to overcome. Its situation is such that it does not have the full benefit, as we do, of being a member of Europol.

In practical terms, the measure will ensure that our liaison bureau at Europol is maintained and that law-enforcement agencies can continue to access Europol systems and intelligence. Our operational partners have made it clear that continued operational capabilities are crucial to keeping our people safe.

I should make it clear, however, that this does not represent the start of our exit negotiations. The issue before us is not how the UK will work with the EU after we leave; opting into the new regulation does, however, put us in the strongest possible position entering into negotiations. It signals our intention to continue practical law-enforcement co-operation with EU partners after we leave. It also means that we can negotiate the new model of co-operation, whatever form that may take, as active participants rather than outsiders trying to gain access to something.

In conclusion, the Government’s view is that opting into the regulation now is the sensible thing to do. The regulation as it stands means that remaining in Europol continues to be in the national interest while we are still in the EU. Opting in maintains operational continuity while the UK remains in the EU, and it helps support a smoother transition as and when we leave. Again, I want to stress that this decision is without prejudice to the discussions on the UK’s future relationship with Europol. The Home Office is exploring all options for co-operation once the UK has left the EU, but it is too early to speculate on what future arrangements may look like. This measure is about what is right for our country today.

[The Chair]

We now have until 5.35 pm for questions to the Minister. I remind Members that questions should be brief. It is open to Members, subject to my discretion, to ask related supplementary questions.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

I very much welcome what the Minister has said. I absolutely appreciate that the position is for today while we remain full members of the European Union and it is not in any way a pre-judgment on how the negotiations to exit may take place. However, by opting in, how will our Europol systems and habits of operating and sharing intelligence and information on crimes that need to be dealt with on a cross-border basis, because they occur on a cross-border basis, be appropriately replicated and provided for after we leave the European Union? For example, is the Minister thinking of setting up shadow systems as a safety net for the post-Brexit world? If not, what other contingencies are the Government putting in place to ensure that today’s Europol protections that the Minister outlined are continued after we leave the European Union?

[Brandon Lewis]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. It is right to opt in at the moment. We have been working with Europol, a lead partner, for some considerable time. About 40% of everything that Europol does is linked to work that is either provided or requested by the United Kingdom. The hon. Lady tempts me to give a running commentary on our Brexit negotiations, but I will resist that temptation because we are at the start of negotiations, not the end. However, hon. Members and hon. Friends should bear in mind the fact that there are other countries that have partnership agreements with Europol. In fact, the United States has one of the biggest liaison offices. It is obviously not a member of the EU, but it has come to an agreement to work with Europol. It sees the benefit and has found a way to do that. Opting in now puts us in a strong position from which to be able to negotiate what is right for us when Brexit comes, but we will see how that goes in the negotiations.

[Richard Arkless (Dumfries and Galloway) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I do not think you will have any call to cut me off early, as you were forced to do the last time I spoke before you.

Like the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome, we welcome the Minister’s announcement, and we appreciate his position in not giving a running commentary. However, it appears to be fairly clear, given the submissions made, that Europol is valued. It keeps us at the forefront; it enhances capacity. According to the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, justice and security arrangements should stay as they are. We have participated in Europol since its creation. Every police chief has made it clear that they want it. Can the Minister confirm that it is the Government’s position that we want to remain in Europol after we leave the European Union?

[Brandon Lewis]

The Home Secretary said on the Floor of the House that she did not think anybody voted in June to be less safe. It is important to do everything we can to ensure that all our residents are safe. It is important to work with our partners across Europe on cross-border issues, whether it is around terrorism, cybercrime or other forms of crime. It is important to work with our partners around the world to make sure we do everything we can to keep people safe. As tempting as it is to outline where we might be at the end of the negotiations, I will resist that temptation. As I said earlier, it is right that we opt in at the moment. Europol plays an important part for our law enforcement agencies and the security of this country. Countries that are not members of the EU have found positive ways to work with Europol. The other 27 countries that are members of the EU will want to continue with that, but that is part of the negotiations yet to come.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That the Committee takes note of Unnumbered European Union Document, a Regulation (EU) 2016/794 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 May 2016 on the European Union Agency for Law Enforcement Cooperation (Europol) and replacing and repealing Council decisions 2009/371/JHA, 2009/934/JHA, 2009/935/JHA, 2009/936/JHA and 2009/968/JHA; endorses the Government's decision to opt in under Protocol 21 on the Position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice annexed to the EU Treaties; and supports the Government's assessment that Europol provides a valuable service to the UK and opting in would enable us to maintain our current access to the agency, until we leave the EU. —(Brandon Lewis.)

--- Later in debate ---

[Brandon Lewis]

I have a couple of points to make. The hon. Member for West Ham rightly raised the issue about the Floor of the House—I hope this will answer the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome as well. However, that does a disservice to this Committee, because any Member may attend and take part in it, so they have all had the opportunity to be present today, to ask questions and to join the debate. As we can see from the fact that I am making the closing speech, we have had discussion, questions and debate with plenty of time to spare within the allotted time. Members could have come to take part. I hope that that indicates that across the House—this is my view from speaking to Members informally—there is recognition of the importance of Europol. While we are full members of the European Union, opting in—with the negotiations we have managed to secure the changes, in particular on the coercive issue—is the right thing to do for this country.

I will pick up the hon. Member for West Ham on one minor matter. When she was paying me a kind compliment, I could feel a “but” coming, and there was a small “but” in there. She was talking about what happens if or when we leave the EU. I need to make it clear that there are no ifs or buts: we will leave the European Union, and our job is to ensure that we do so in the way that is best for the United Kingdom. Security is clearly a priority—one of our priorities to ensure that we keep our residents safe. At this point in time, while we are members of the EU, UK law-enforcement agencies must continue to benefit from and contribute to the work that Europol undertakes, without prejudging in any way, or without prejudice to, the negotiations that will go ahead in time.

The negotiations that have led us to where we are today, with this opt-in decision, are negotiations that have delivered a very good outcome for UK law enforcement and Europol more generally. Without doubt, the organisation is good and strong. As the hon. Lady said, the chief exec has great experience in the field. Without doubt, opting into the measure is in our country’s best interests, until such time as we will need a new agreement from our position outside the EU. For now, I commend the motion to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.