Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Bob Blackman and Chris Stephens

Committee stage
Thursday 14th September 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Stephens]

I have listened carefully to the Minister. If I understood her correctly, she said that the Bill does not change Foreign Office policy. Many Opposition Members believe that some provisions in the Bill actually do change Foreign Office policy, and we explored that in an earlier exchange. Many of us believe that we are using a domestic Bill to change Foreign Office policy, and if we are doing that, I insist that the Committee divide on the new clause.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Will the hon. Member explain the basis on which he selected his large number of countries and excluded others?

[Chris Stephens]

As a member of this Committee, the hon. Gentleman could have tabled an amendment to the new clause or even his own amendment. Those countries were selected because of concerns with the human rights abuses that are taking place. Perhaps that will satisfy the hon. Gentleman enough for him to support the new clause.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Stephens]

May I first thank you, Dame Caroline, and Sir George for chairing these sittings? I also commend all Members. There has been much debate around the Bill, and many of us have regarded it as essential that we debate it in a tone that is appropriate but also robust. I think we have done that in this Committee. I would like to thank all hon. Members for the tone they have adopted and also for their good humour. That has been essential for the Bill, which has been fairly controversial.

We will obviously reflect on the changes we want to see in the stages to come. I do think there is going to be a challenge on the Government’s side, because a number of their Members are very critical of the Bill. The fact that no amendments have been agreed will be a test for them. I again thank you, Dame Caroline, and Sir George, as well as the Clerks, for all the help we have had.

Lastly, it was unfortunate that there was no evidence from a Palestine support group in our evidence sessions. I do not believe there was a conspiracy on that. I think it was perhaps more cock-up than conspiracy, but I hope it is something we will all learn from. We should have all views heard, and we might all want to take that point away and reflect on it.

[Bob Blackman]

On that point, the Committee received correspondence today from the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. Conservative Members’ inboxes have certainly been filled with over 2,500 emails from people who are sending a template email that is factually inaccurate. It would be helpful to know from the Clerks or you, Dame Caroline, whether there will be a response to the correspondence we have had or whether we as individuals will have to respond and point out the facts. Personally, I have three or four emails from constituents, but the emails have come in from literally all over the country to everyone else. Frankly, it is a complete waste of their time and effort.

The point the Palestine Solidarity Campaign has made is reasonable given the information that has been supplied to it, but we need to correct the record on how the witnesses were chosen and on the offer that was made in terms of correspondence and evidence so that we could carefully consider all sides. As the hon. Member for Glasgow South West has referred to, we have to go through Report, Third Reading and the other place. It would be grossly unfair, given all the work the Committee has done, were it suggested that we were one-sided and did not hear the other side of the argument.

Economic Activity of Public Bodies (Overseas Matters) Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Bob Blackman and Chris Stephens

Committee stage
Tuesday 12th September 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Bob Blackman]

I could call the hon. Gentleman my hon. Friend because we co-operate on many issues. As representatives we can speak out and ask for a change in the law, but it is not right for us to lobby organisations, individuals and public bodies to break the law. That is what is covered in the clauses. With respect, I think the wording could be cleverer or better. I am one of those individuals who passionately believes in free speech. I passionately believe that people in a democracy and elsewhere should be allowed to say what they believe. I share the sentiments expressed on Second Reading by the right hon. Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge), who has fought the British National party. Whenever we see extreme views with which we all disagree, we need to expose them in public and defeat them in an argument, rather than push them underground. My clear concern is that people could undermine community cohesion inadvertently. They probably would not mean to do so. There is no issue with making statements and having debates in councils, Parliament and the Scottish Parliament. The issue is one of breaching the law in terms of procurement, including of goods and services.

[Chris Stephens]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous. Does he not concede that there is a real problem with the language in clause 4(1)(b), which states

“that the person would intend to act in such a way were it lawful to do so”?

That is a rather baffling sentence, is it not?

[Bob Blackman]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, but that is what I have said. In due course, perhaps on Report, the language may need to be tidied up. However, the intention is clear. The decision maker should not be saying, “If I was able to do it, I would make this decision.” I do not think it helps the public body or decision making if primary legislation passed through this House says that that would be unlawful. That would not help community cohesion and it would not protect public bodies against being accused of making decisions based on particular views rather than on their coherent procurement needs. I will conclude with that.

[Chris Stephens]

I know you are a seasoned political veteran, Sir George—it is always clause 4 that causes a problem, isn’t it? It is always clause 4, and the problem with this clause 4 is that it is the thought police clause. The difference is—[Interruption.] I have been rehearsing that one. I made that wisecrack privately to Sir George the other day, so yes. But this is the thought police clause. The normal police come for someone if they commit an act that is criminal, but the thought police are different. They act if someone “intends” to act in a particular way. Under the Bill, the authorities do not need to demonstrate any proof of intent to publish a particular kind of statement. That is impossible to do in the normal world, so let us just rely on telepathy to find out someone’s intent.

It gets worse, and I thank the hon. Member for Harrow East for taking my intervention. In clause 4, entitled “Related prohibition on statements”, subsection (1)(b) proposes that even

“were it lawful to do so”,

any alleged intent to do so would be a criminal act. You need only consult George Orwell on this, Sir George—prove me wrong if you can—because he says, “Yes, this is the Thinkpol, whose job is to monitor the citizens of Oceania and arrest all those who have committed thoughtcrime in challenge to the status quo authority of the Party and the regime of Big Brother.” Fortunately, there is an escape clause for the Government in clause 4, which states:

“This section does not apply to a statement by a Minister of the Crown”.

Lucky them—but not anybody else.

The convention for the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms, better known as the European convention on human rights, was opened for signature in Rome on 4 November 1950—only two years after George Orwell published his book “1984”. The world had just come through a period in which freedom of expression had been brutally suppressed. The ECHR, to which the UK is still a signatory, defines freedom of expression thus:

“Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.”

The purpose of the Bill is therefore to break an international convention and undermine a fundamental human right. Why would any Government do that? Is it because this is the red meat that the Tory party is throwing to people—a policy that actively restricts moral and political freedom of expression on human rights, environmental protections and workers’ rights? Are they playing to a narrow audience with dog-whistle policies? We can end this dystopian farce here and now.

Witness after witness, even the witnesses who support the Bill and support the Government’s position on the Bill, said—all of them—that they had difficulties with this clause and how it could possibly be enacted and enforced. We need to take account of that, and I ask the House to support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts. If not, we certainly need to remove clause 4.

Easter Adjournment

Debate between Bob Blackman and Chris Stephens

Thursday 30th March 2023 Westminster Hall

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered matters to be raised before the forthcoming adjournment.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I place on the record my thanks to Madam Deputy Speaker for allowing flexibility this afternoon, enabling us literally to move from one debate to another, rather than this second debate starting strictly at 3 pm, as would normally be the case. That flexibility allows Members to contribute and indeed allows us to have a full and proper debate.

The only shame, of course, is that the Government have chosen to put on a debate in the main Chamber today on a very important topic—the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday agreement—rather than allowing us to debate these matters there. Nevertheless, we have been elevated to this Chamber as a result, and I am glad to see many Members here to contribute to the debate.

At this time of year, we of course remember the late Sir David Amess, who would give a valedictory performance in these debates. I am afraid that I will not attempt to cover the number of subjects that he normally covered—

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

That’s a shame!

[Bob Blackman]

The hon. Member may regret saying that by the time I sit down. [Laughter.] However, I will seek to raise a number of topics.

Let me kick off with the excellent performance of Harrow Council. In less than a year, it has managed to balance the budget overall, saving itself from bankruptcy, and ensuring that there is transparency in putting residents first in the delivery of services.

Over the Easter holiday, more than 1,000 free places will be available for children and young people aged five to 16 at the various different local clubs and activities for the school holidays. That will entertain children over the holidays, help them make new friends, allow parents to work, and help with childcare costs. Each space will include a free, nutritious meal per day. More than 20 organisations in my borough have received funding to deliver the activities, which include sports, arts and crafts, skills workshops, cooking clubs, theatre and other trips, and much more. There is also much-needed provision for those with special educational needs.

As the weather improves and spring is upon us, Harrow Council is embarking on the reworking of 37 tennis courts in 13 parks in the borough, bringing them up to a high standard. Thanks go to the Lawn Tennis Association for funding that, because at the moment 11 are literally unusable. Encouraging people to play safely outside and to play more sport has to be good news as we enter the summer months and as we look forward the Wimbledon championships.

On a less happy note, antisocial behaviour has clearly grown in recent years across the country, including in my borough, although I welcome the Government’s strategic plan on combating antisocial behaviour, which was announced this week. At the moment, 11% of my casework is on antisocial behaviour, and it is the second most recorded crime in Harrow—second only to vehicle crime. This year, 5,550 incidents have been reported to Harrow Council and the police.

I welcome Harrow’s positive measure of consulting on a public spaces protection order aimed at tackling antisocial behaviour. The order would result in fines of £100 for anyone caught urinating, defecating or spitting anywhere in the borough. The council is also considering imposing restrictions on bird feeding and requiring dogs to be on leads in parks. The consultation runs for eight weeks until 15 May and seeks the views of Harrow residents and businesses.

The council aims to crack down further on antisocial behaviour, such as fly-tipping, which is endemic in Harrow and I am sure in many other places; street drinking; and uncontrolled dogs. The order would allow immediate enforcement action to be taken, including against those who drive over and damage footpaths, making them unsafe for walkers, and those who fail to pick up dog mess after dogs have been around.

Of course, we are in the run-up to the expansion of the ultra low emission zone. Unfortunately, we have not had a proper response from the Mayor’s office to the 41 constituents who wrote with detailed questions and concerns about the ULEZ. All those were sent to the Mayor’s office some months ago but, instead of a personalised response answering each constituent’s concerns, in a Kafkaesque move, we received a generic send-to-all copy-and-paste, and now we are simply being ignored when we send chasers.

I am pleased to have launched a ULEZ poll and petition. In just three weeks, we have had more than 250 responses. Surprise, surprise: 96% do not support the ULEZ expansion, with only 10 people—none of them with a car—saying that they do support it. More than 260 people have now signed the petition calling on the Mayor to reverse the ULEZ expansion to Harrow. Despite that, cameras are going up across the borough, to the obvious dissatisfaction of residents.

To good news once again, Mr Mundell: Home Office responses to casework are improving. The list of Home Office cases with which my office is dealing is down from more than 180 to 26. We are still struggling with some long-standing cases, which are more complicated—the oldest started on 23 July 2021—and urgent and last-minute cases, one of which was referred to in the main Chamber this morning, on matters such as urgent visas, funerals and fast-track services that are not being dealt with in the time promised.

As the protests in Iran rage on, I visited the Iranian Ashraf 3 refugee camp last month to meet Maryam Rajavi. It was deeply overwhelming to visit the museum that details the torture and deaths of as many as 120,000 MEK—Mojahedin-e-Khalq—supporters over the years of struggle for a democratic Iran. In 2015, Iran launched a 40-rocket attack against Ashraf 2, the camp’s previous home, sited in Iraq, leaving 24 dead and forcing the other refugees to move to Albania. Albania does not always get good press in this place, but let us thank the Albanian Government for allowing Ashraf 3 to be set up and enabling those refugees to settle.

I unreservedly condemn the Government of Iran’s actions in suppressing the protests in their country, and I deplore the violent behaviour of the Iranian police. I continue to be deeply concerned by reports of threats made to organisations in the UK that support the rights of protesters in Iran. I will continue to urge the Government to include the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps on the list of proscribed terrorist organisations and to work with our international counterparts to ensure that further sanctions are placed on Iran without delay.

The recent attack on the Indian high commission was more than just a hullabaloo. The hooliganism of some Khalistani demonstrators outside the Indian high commission is a disgrace to this country. This is the sixth time in as many years that it has been attacked in a similar way. Security guards were injured, windows were smashed, an attempt was made to remove the tricolour, and further damage was caused. I drew attention to that at business questions last week. I was very careful about my words—I said that these were Khalistani militants—but sadly the people who put subtitles on social media decided to substitute “Sikh” for “Khalistani”. I made it very clear that the vast majority of Sikhs in this country are law-abiding citizens who behave properly and appropriately. Indeed, this country owes a big debt to the Sikh community for coming to our aid during the great war and the second world war.

The fact is that these militants operate across Canada, the United States and Australia at the same time. We are harbouring a number of organisations that are proscribed by India—our friend. They are terrorists, and they should be proscribed and prevented from taking further action. I commend the bravery of the officials at the high commission, who, rather than protect themselves during the attack, simply replaced the flag with an even bigger version, demonstrating that they would not be cowed by the demonstration.

Last week, I welcomed a group of Romanian MPs and ambassadors to Parliament for a series of meetings on Romania. They also participated in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office conference to strengthen our bilateral relations. In Harrow East alone, we have 11,000 Romanians, who contribute positively to society and our economy. One thing that shocked me was the lack of a Romanian GCSE in this country, despite the fact that there are about 350,000 Romanian young people living here. There is already a Polish GCSE, so why are we discriminating against our Romanian friends? I have raised this matter already with the Education Secretary. I trust that her Department and the Government will continue to look at the opportunity.

I am pleased that my private Member’s Bill—the Supported Housing (Regulatory Oversight) Bill—has gone through the Commons and will enter the other place on 21 April. I have been consulting local authorities, providers and stakeholders in the sector regularly to continue resolving any concerns or questions they have. I hope my Bill will fly through the other place. Lord Best is piloting it, as he did for my previous private Member’s Bill. It is crucial that rogue landlords are regulated to protect vulnerable tenants from exploitation. I recently learned of two tragic homicides as a result of irresponsible and negligent landlords. That highlights how important the Bill is to the supported housing sphere.

I have been lucky to visit India on several occasions recently, and I am pleased to have met a wide range of people: Government officials, ambassadors, businessmen and women, and the general public. It is clear that both countries are extremely supportive of the potential for the India-UK free trade deal. We are now on the eighth round of talks on the deal. Although we were promised it would be signed by Diwali last year, let us hope it will come into operation by Diwali this year. I chair the all- party parliamentary group for India (Trade and Investment). We plan a delegation in the very near future, and I am sure that parliamentarians will continue to strengthen and champion relations between the countries.

[Chris Stephens]

I thank the hon. Member for giving way and for taking my earlier intervention in good humour. Talking about India and trade, would he also be interested in the newly formed all-party parliamentary group for kabaddi? The British Kabaddi League has now been set up, and my constituent Prem Singh is very active in it and is liaising in India to promote the sport of kabaddi both here in the UK and in India.

[Bob Blackman]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I noticed the setting up of that all-party parliamentary group, and I confess that I was ignorant of the sport. I will certainly look at and consider participating in it.

Let me also mention smoking, which remains the biggest cause of cancer and avoidable death, with 78,000 people dying as a result each year. Reducing the number of smokers will benefit the NHS, the individuals’ health and the health of those around them considerably. This is a cause I am very passionate about, because both my late parents died as a result of smoking-related cancer. For me, this is deeply personal, and I will continue to champion the cause.

Indeed, I proposed a ten-minute rule Bill that would mean, were it to be passed by this place, that any retailer looking to sell tobacco goods would have to hold a licence, as is currently the case with alcohol. That would mean that, to ensure that their licences are not revoked, vendors would have to be aware of the importance of proof of age when selling products. Further, I hope it would eradicate the sale of fake or copy tobacco goods, which are often cheaper and remain untested and very harmful materials. As we approach a year since the eye-opening Khan review, I hope that the Minister will consider the proposals and publish the Government’s long-awaited tobacco review plan imminently. I utter a “gardyloo”—we are growing impatient for that tobacco control plan to be implemented.

Finally, I wish everyone who is celebrating a very happy and healthy Eid and Easter, because we are of course not only celebrating the festival of Ramadan but breaking for Easter. We also have the festival of Passover, which Jews will be celebrating, and today is Rama Navami—a tongue-twister if ever there were one—when Hindus celebrate, once again, the triumph of good over evil. I trust that everyone will be able to relax and enjoy some time with family, friends and loved ones over this period, as well as of course to campaign in the local elections. Most importantly, I hope that hon. Members can take time for reflection, whichever religion they follow, so that they come back refreshed and in a better mood.