Debate Excerpts: Ben Gummer vs Kate Green

Hospital Services (South Manchester)

Debate between Ben Gummer and Kate Green

Tuesday 8th September 2015

(9 years, 2 months ago)

Westminster Hall

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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer)

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First, I thank and congratulate the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Mike Kane) on bringing this debate to the House. It is a particular pleasure to be answering him. His predecessor became something of a friend, and I know that he had a similar admiration for him and certainly a far closer friendship with him, so I feel honoured now to be answering, as one of my first clutch of Westminster Hall debates, a debate brought here by him.

As is so often the case with Westminster Hall debates, it is frustrating that the debate will not be more widely seen and understood by members of the public, because they would see Members of Parliament fighting hard for their constituents and constituencies, and speaking with great eloquence and detailed knowledge and understanding of complicated things. Those things are not necessarily within their professional expertise, but they have done the research and acquired the knowledge to be able to speak about them. And, most important, Members are speaking on a cross-party basis. If more people were to see that, they would see the value that they were getting from their representatives. I value very much the passion and the detail that the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East has brought to the debate, as I do that of other hon. Members who have spoken and the measured response that the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed), has given.

I should say at the outset that I am rather more restrained from giving an expansive answer to the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East than I would normally be, because a letter before action has been issued and, although the Department of Health is not a party to any legal action, I would not like to prejudice something that did come about. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not mind if I comment on those areas on which I can comment and then on the general principles that were raised. The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) specifically raised the general policy of reconfiguration. I can give her more detail about that and give, I hope, a narrative explanation of how I and the Department understand the process as it has gone on so far.

In the round, it is welcome that the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members understand the importance of devolution. I agree completely with him that the turn of events in Manchester is of serious significance; it is of a generation-changing nature. It was good to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady) saying exactly the same thing. It is important that decisions that are taken at any stage by devolved administrations, whether they be clinical commissioning groups, local councils or health and wellbeing boards—or indeed the overview and scrutiny committees in the way they look at these decisions—inspire confidence in devolved decision making, rather than acting against it. Of course, reconfiguration and change normally cause some disruption and disquiet in areas not chosen as sites for new or increased activities. He spoke powerfully of the need for devolved powers, but I hope that he accepts that it is in the nature of such decisions that people will sometimes be disappointed.

I understand entirely why Wythenshawe, with the extraordinary range of specialisms, both secondary and tertiary, which the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East pointed to, and with a history famous not only in the north-west but across the country, should feel aggrieved that it was not one of the four centres chosen to be part of Healthier Together. It would be unusual if the world-respected clinicians and management at the hospital did not fight their corner, and it is appropriate that he should represent their concerns. I agree with everyone who has said that it would be extremely sad for the matter to go to judicial review. We certainly do not want that to come to pass, either in this consultation or elsewhere.

Before I talk in general about consultations, I want to bring the hon. Gentleman up to date on events in the past couple of days. I understand that there have been some constructive conversations between commissioners and clinicians at the hospital, and that discussions will continue about the relationship between tertiary specialties and the general surgery that, it is proposed, will be moved to one of the four sites. A conversation has begun and is continuing, so there is a glimmer of hope that the parties involved will not go to the courts on this matter, which is so important for patient safety and healthcare in Manchester.

I want to speak about the nature of consultations, and to respond to the shadow Minister’s entirely correct points about how a consultation should be conducted. As a constituency Member of Parliament, I, too, have been through a number of health consultations. Some are good, and some are bad, but I hope that we are generally getting better at them. I remember several, under the previous Administration—this is not a party political point, but I think that the process is generally iterative within government—which were particularly poorly conducted. To their credit, the previous Administration reversed some of the decisions.

Some consultations are well run, however, and have the support of large numbers of people in the community. I can only report on the information that I have received, but I am impressed by the support from local councils, from clinicians, from the clinical senate, from doctors and from management across Manchester for the Healthier Together programme, and for the size and scope of the consultation. As the shadow Minister and Opposition Members know, a consultation is not a plebiscite, so we cannot take the raw number of responses in favour of any particular solution as a “correct” response. It is important that all consultation responses are taken into account, and I have been assiduous in trying to make sure that the Healthier Together team—the commissioners—have listened to all consultation responses. I have urged them to engage as profoundly as possible with Wythenshawe to show that the responses have been listened to with care.

At the core of the proposal is a noble ambition: to save in excess of 1,000 lives over a five-year period. If Manchester were to match the best mortality rates achieved elsewhere in the country, 300 lives a year would be saved, which is nearly a life a day. The decisions being taken are difficult, but they will produce a considerable dividend not only for hundreds of potential victims of currently substandard care but for their families, extended families and friends. The prize is considerable, and it is worth striving after.

I agree with the shadow Minister that consultations need to demonstrate wide public engagement. I am impressed by the number of people involved in this consultation, which received some 29,000 written responses. There has been 18 months of consultation, and 23,500 people were involved in this specific part of the consultation. There are conflicting answers to the question of how to reduce mortality in Manchester; that has been clear even from hon. Members’ contributions. To mangle St Augustine, we are almost saying, “Let us have service reconfiguration and service improvement, but not yet.”

I do not fully agree with the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West that consultations and service changes should happen sequentially. It would be impossible to run anything as complex as the health service, or, indeed, anything in government, if one were to take that approach. We must in this instance, as elsewhere, rely on the clinical judgment of commissioners. That lies at the very heart of the changes that the Government have made—both in our coalition iteration and in this new Conservative Government—towards relying entirely on the clinical basis for service reconfiguration. I must, therefore, bow to the judgment of clinicians in this and other instances, and I know that most Members here will want to do the same.

Although the shadow Minister has said that the proposal comes within the global need to try to do more with less—I do not want to rehearse the arguments about healthcare spending—I think that everyone has agreed that, in this instance, finance does not play a part. The chairman of the Manchester local councils made that explicit in his response to the consultation. This is actually about doing more better. There will always be a trade-off between travel times and sites, and clinical excellence. We would all like to have, right next to our house, a hospital with the full suite of tertiary expertise, but as we all know, a high throughput of patients would be required to maintain the necessary skills within clinical teams. Clearly, that would not be possible, so there has to be a balance between the number of sites and the distance that people must travel to them. That is the balance that the consultation and the proposal have sought to strike. In the majority of Manchester, it is believed that they have struck that balance correctly.

Kate Green

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The Minister spoke a moment ago about the decision being taken by clinical commissioning groups—by clinicians. The problem is that a different group of clinicians, namely the consultants at Wythenshawe hospital, are offering a different opinion about patient safety from that of the commissioners. As politicians, I believe that we must take account of the fact that safety is being flagged up by clinicians. How does the Department reconcile the difference of opinion about patient safety between commissioners and consultants?

Ben Gummer

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The hon. Lady is right to say that there are concerns from some clinicians at Wythenshawe hospital, and we should listen to those. There is an established process by which those concerns should be brought to bear. If she does not mind me running through the detail of how reconfiguration policy works, I am sure that she will find answers to some of the questions in her speech.

Our first principle is that the service changes should be led by clinicians, which is the point of the process. In this instance, the service changes are being led by 12 clinical commissioning groups coming together to discuss the future of 10 hospitals. The service changes will affect just under 1% of in-patients, and just under 20% of patients receiving general surgery, at Wythenshawe hospital. Within the context of Wythenshawe hospital as a whole, we are talking about a very small number of patients. I appreciate the hon. Lady’s concerns about the interrelationship with other specialties, but let us keep it in mind that this is a small number of patients.

Once the commissioners have come to their decision, there are two ways of resolving complaints from one party or another. The first is by a recommendation from the joint overview and scrutiny committee to the Secretary of State for Health—such a recommendation has not been made in this case—or by a referral to the Independent Reconfiguration Panel, which the hon. Lady mentioned in her speech. The Independent Reconfiguration Panel has made a number of recommendations in the past. That is no predictor of future performance, but at no point in the past, under any Administration, has a Secretary of State gone against the Independent Reconfiguration Panel’s recommendations. The point of both those exercises is to retain clinical ownership of decisions, albeit by different clinicians from those who made the original decision. If we go back to the bad old days, when decisions were made for political purposes following a clinical recommendation, we would not listen to clinicians in the round and, therefore, would make decisions on the wrong basis, possibly putting lives in jeopardy.

The hon. Lady has raised clinicians’ concerns about the effect on tertiary services, which are impressive at Wythenshawe hospital. All I can say is that NHS England has undertaken a thorough clinically-led review of all tertiary services at the hospital and has concluded that the changes to general surgery for stomach and bowel accidents will not adversely impact on the tertiary specialties available at Wythenshawe hospital. That is the advice that the Department has received from clinicians at NHS England. I have described the other options open to parties in Manchester, and I reaffirm that, even if it might suit some Members present to take that decision-making process out of clinical hands at whatever level and to vest it in the Department, it is not a direction that anyone on either side of the House ultimately wishes to take. We must therefore trust the opinion of clinicians in the bodies that have made those decisions so far.

All 3 Debates between Ben Gummer and Kate Green

Oral Answers to Questions

Oral Answers to Questions

Hospital Services (South Manchester)