Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Debate between Beccy Cooper and John Hayes

Report stage
Wednesday 26th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sir John Hayes]

In our post-spiritual or at least post-religious age, two phenomena are evident. When God is forgotten and faith declines, people do not believe in nothing but, as G.K. Chesterton said, they believe in anything. They find new causes and crusades, and I know the advocates of this Bill believe that they are crusading in a noble cause.

The second thing that occurs is that, as demons are regarded as purely mythical entities, things that were once regarded as normal and regular become demonised. The curious paradox is that while cocaine is widely available—and, I am told, de rigueur among certain elements of the urban liberal elite—pipe smokers are now seen as heretics. Were that not so alarming, it would be the subject of a comic satire. That is the kind of world we live in: we are simultaneously becoming more prurient and more puritanical.

The amendments that stand in my name and those of other hon. and right hon. Gentlemen are designed to improve the Bill to avoid unintended consequences. The hon. Member for Worthing West (Dr Cooper) said— I think I am quoting her accurately—that we need data and evidence. What is clear from the data and evidence is that previous attempts to deal with the issue of smoking have resulted in a huge surge in illegal tobacco. Some 83% of smokers report purchasing tobacco not subject to UK tax in 2024. That number has increased hugely since that earlier legislation. Three quarters of smokers claim to buy tobacco not subject to UK tax from under-the-counter suppliers, who have become legion in constituencies such as mine and, I am sure, in small towns across the whole of the country.

Those are the unintended consequences of well-meaning crusaders who thought they were doing noble things when they passed legislation in this House. That is the data. Those are the facts.

[Dr Beccy Cooper]

Will the right hon. Member give way?

[Sir John Hayes]

I will give way. As I have cited the hon. Lady, how could I do anything other?

[Dr Beccy Cooper]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Is he making the argument that we should not address population health issues—population health interventions have seen a reduction in smoking and a reduction in health-related damage from smoking—because of the consequences of illegal tobacco? Those issues do need to be addressed, but is he saying that we should keep it legal and therefore not see a reduction?

[Sir John Hayes]

What I am saying to the hon. Lady is that the Government—and the previous Government should have done the same—need to take concerted and decisive action to deal with the unintended consequence of well-meaning legislation that led to a huge growth in the illegal sale of tobacco and cigarettes. Rather than introducing a rolling age of consent, which, by the way, is entirely unenforceable, they ought to target their efforts, draw on their resources and seek the almost limitless expertise that is available to Government to deal with an issue that, frankly, is going largely unrestricted.

Good work is being done by trading standards in my constituency in Lincolnshire and by local police, but they struggle, because the legislation is inadequate. I would have supported a Bill, had it come to the House— I will not digress too much, Madam Deputy Speaker, because you will not allow me to do so—that licensed the sale of tobacco. Most tobacconists and most newsagents, I suspect, would welcome that measure. I know that police would like to see that kind of measure, which is rather like what we do with alcohol. There is a precedent there, but that is not what is before us today.

On the rolling age of consent, the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), who has tabled amendment 4, is right that it cannot be enforced. I am in favour, by the way, of raising the age of consent. To be honest, I am in favour of raising the age of consent to 21 for virtually everything. That could be enforced, although it would not be straightforward. But the idea that someone will go into a tobacconist or a newsagent and say, “I am 29” and the tobacconist will say, “Actually, I think you could be 28” or in years to come, “I am 57” and the tobacconist or newsagent will say, “No, no, I think you could be 55” is nonsense. It is never going to happen. No retailer is going to do that. Either the Bill will fail—I think the law would be broken daily—or we will devote undue resources to policing something that frankly does not warrant such attention. Let us recognise that this is a preposterous proposal. As the right hon. Member for East Antrim said, by and large we should not do things in this House that are preposterous.