“Councillors on the Frontline”

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Martin Vickers

Thursday 5th September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. By way of background, perhaps I should say that I served 26 years as a local councillor, which I know is more than people get for murder. It was a great privilege to take on that role. I saw it change over many years. I had the opportunity of serving on a district council, in a two-tier system, and when, thankfully, the county of Humberside was abolished, I was able to serve on one of the unitary authorities that replaced it, so I have seen the role from both perspectives.

I served as a cabinet member for six years in what was—I recall mentioning this before—a successful Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition, elected to clear up a financial mess left it by the Labour party. Hon. Members may find some parallels with another situation. I came to the conclusion that, without doubt, unitary authorities were far superior.

I congratulate the Select Committee on producing this report, although I have to say that I have seen many like it before. Those reports have covered so many of the same subjects and come to similar conclusions, yet we still find ourselves in a very similar position, in terms of local authorities, to the one that we were in a few years ago.

Section 2 of the report is entitled “Localism and the role of councillors”. I support the Government’s determination to free up councils from the continuous moves towards more and more central direction— something that I experienced in the whole of the period for which I was a councillor. I sincerely hope that the Government will resist the temptation of more interference when they happen to disagree with what might be rather odd decisions coming from local authorities.

In principle, I support greater community involvement, but we must ensure that we retain decision making by democratically accountable authorities. It is tempting to create community groups and so on, and I can think of many good examples of those in my constituency, but the truth is that they are not entirely representative of the community from which they hail. I attended a meeting of the Haverstoe community forum in my constituency last month—30 to 40 dedicated people who wanted improvements to their local area. Those of us who have attended public meetings and the like over the years know that it is only when there is a really big decision, usually concerning planning or perhaps the closure of a school or hospital, that the community turns out in force. Otherwise, only a limited number of people are involved and they are certainly not representative.

If we are to attract people into becoming councillors, the job must be seen to be worth while. By that, I mean that there must be real opportunities to take decisions that affect local communities. Too often in the past 25 to 30 years, successive Governments of all persuasions have felt the urge to create more quangos of various descriptions, usually taking decision making away from democratically elected councillors. That is to be deplored and I hope to see gradual moves to change the situation. People want to get involved and shape their police service or local health services, for example. There are opportunities to do that, but there are limited opportunities to do it within the context of a decision-making authority.

We need accountability. There is a big row in my area at the moment, following a £25,000 increase in the salary of the chief executive of the local hospital trust. I would like to think that such things would be constrained, at least to some extent, if there was democratic accountability—looking at the rates of pay for council chief executives, perhaps that is a vain hope. Nevertheless, we must not undermine our local authorities by creating more bodies that have no electoral mandate.

If we give councillors real power and decisions to take, we stand a better chance of attracting people of quality to stand for election. Fascinatingly, there are two types of councillors: those who are fascinated by the political process, and perhaps want to climb the ladder and get to this place at some point; and the genuine community councillors. A marriage between the two provides the best service to the local community.

I, too, share the concerns about outsourcing highlighted in the report. Too often, there is an assumption, one way or the other, sometimes governed by politics, that either in-house or outsourced is better. In fact, there is no magic formula. I have seen good and bad examples of both, but where we do outsource, it is essential that elected members have control, can still raise issues on behalf of their constituents and have access to the performance evidence that shows either failure or success, or, as is more likely, something in between.

[Mr Sheerman]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. Under the current constraints, many local authorities have to outsource. The all-party-supported Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 gives us opportunities to outsource to social and community enterprises. Should not we push in that direction? To do that—to return to the point the Chairman of the Select Committee made—we need to train councillors in how to handle that kind of relationship.

[Martin Vickers]

I agree that the types of organisations the hon. Gentleman mentions need to be involved in providing services and there needs to be adequate accountability. I shall come to training later in my comments, because I have certain reservations about some aspects of councillor training.

I turn to the structure of local government. Paragraph 30 is headed “Unitary authorities”. I have served in two-tier and single-tier systems, and I say unequivocally that unitary is by far the superior structure. My view, not widely shared, is that we should move to unitary authorities headed by an elected mayor, leaving, I hasten to add, parish councils as they are, because they play a vital role. A streamlined structure and an elected mayor—someone with their own mandate—who is recognisably in charge would provide a better service. Mayors could act as ambassadors for their local areas and, like Back-Bench Members, be another thorn in the side of Government, which will do no harm at all.

There are two unitary authorities in my part of the world, North Lincolnshire council and North East Lincolnshire council. I shall take North Lincolnshire council as an example, not necessarily because it is Tory controlled, but because of two recent examples of how effective councils can make a difference.

A major planning application has been grinding its way through the system for four years—the south Humber energy park by Able UK—and is now almost past its final hurdle with the Secretary of State. The local authority has handled it in an exemplary manner. It has assisted, but also taken on board fully the concerns of the local community. It held endless consultation events and, on the whole, the process was a model of how such things should be done.

More recently, in November last year, more than 500 redundancies were announced at the Kimberly-Clark factory in Barton-upon-Humber. Fortunately, the council played a major role in attracting a new business, Wren Kitchens, to the factory. There is now the possibility of 500 new jobs coming on stream over the next year, the company having initially taken on about 100 staff. Councillor Liz Redfern, leader of the council, and her team have played a major role in delivering that.

On the structure and the elections, I firmly believe in single-member wards. In Parliament, we rightly value the link between ourselves and our constituents, which is there partly because we are single Members for single constituencies. I compare our role with that of Members of the European Parliament, who are anonymous due to the list system and the vast areas they cover. There are arguments for and against all-out elections and elections by thirds.

[Martin Vickers]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I entirely agree. The link between the elected and their constituents is vital and would be strengthened by single-member wards.

I was moving on to the arguments about whole-council elections or elections by thirds. Given a choice between elections by whole council and by thirds I would go for by thirds, but why not have half-council elections every two years? That would be sufficient to keep those in authority on their toes, mindful of an election not too far in the distance, but it would not be so unstable that it would not allow for policies to be introduced and developed.

The report mentions the political class, and the divide between the political class and “ordinary” people. Presumably, the political class is extraordinary, and I suppose we are, in one sense, because we have been consumed by the political process, and once bitten by the political bug we find it difficult to let go. If we allow local authorities more freedom, we will have more people getting involved.

Our local government system relies on a functional, vibrant, party political system and I have reservations about the role of local authorities in promoting democracy and elections because that is what the parties should be doing. It is yet another example of officials—the state, in the broadest sense—doing something that should be done by the voluntary sector, the voluntary sector being the political parties.

[Mr Sheerman]

May I push the hon. Gentleman on that point? We did not get a majority of women doctors easily. We first made doctoring, especially GP work, compatible with having a family and other responsibilities—flexible working. Some bus companies even changed their rotas, and we got more women bus drivers. We have not considered closely enough why we do not get enough bright women able to participate in their local democracy. Does the hon. Gentleman not think that that is a big failing?

[Martin Vickers]

I accept that there is a failing by the political parties to broaden their appeal to women and minority groups, but we should support and encourage them to do that, rather than have yet more interference.

The report mentions the voluntary and community sector as a hunting ground for potential candidates. Speaking as someone who spent 15 years as a constituency agent, I can assure Members that that ground has been hunted almost to death. One part of that hunting ground is the parish councils.

I remember once approaching a lady on a parish council and asking her, “Wouldn’t you like to move up to the district council? We need a candidate for your village.” She replied, “Oh no. It’s political. I don’t believe you should have politics in local government.” A couple of years later, however, she was elected to the district council as a Lib Dem, and I said to her, “Why? You said you didn’t believe in politics in local government”, and she replied, “Oh no. That’s why I joined the Lib Dems.”

There are many important points in the report. There are constraints on the time that people can give, and it is important that local authorities bear in mind that most elected members do the work part time, alongside earning a living. The trend, much more noticeable in recent years, to have more daytime meetings is a deterrent to people becoming councillors. The Chairman of the Select Committee made the point about loss of earnings and allowances, and that is perhaps one way of compensating them, but if the self-employed want to get involved it is almost impossible for them to do so in normal working hours.