Draft Merchant Shipping (Marine Equipment) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Karl Turner

Tuesday 19th February 2019 General Committees

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

It is an absolute pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Buck, and a privilege no doubt to serve under your chairmanship. I do not intend to detain the Committee long. As the Minister has already set out, the instrument seeks to maintain and update existing regulations covering the application of the international standards for marine equipment produced and certified in the UK and the EU used on UK and EU-registered ships after Brexit. The marine equipment covered includes life-saving appliances, crew accommodation and equipment for navigation, fire protection and marine pollution prevention.

Merchant shipping notice 1874 lists the bodies certified by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to issue approval of marine equipment.

[Mr Sheerman]

I intervene on my hon. Friend because I could not get in to ask the Minister about the safety of vessels and whether there was a real problem with the danger of marine pollution. My hon. Friend knows well the port of Kingston upon Hull and the Yorkshire ports. I am getting feedback from them. They are extremely concerned about a major problem with this transfer. We have to remember that some of the worst disasters at sea were not predicted. They could very well happen in the turmoil post Brexit.

[Karl Turner]

My hon. Friend is right to raise safety issues, but I have to be honest. I am, indeed, the Member for Kingston upon Hull East, but it is not true to say that the port has approached me to raise safety issues with me. My hon. Friend has a great deal of knowledge in this area, and he is right to raise concerns about what happens once we leave the EU, but the reality is that the regulations continue to ensure safety standards in the UK when we leave the EU. I do not like the fact that we are leaving the EU; I have made my position on that matter very clear. But the truth is that we are leaving, and we need to ensure that safety regulations that already exist apply in domestic law once we have left.

MSN 1874 was reissued in June 2018. I note that paragraph 6.3 of the explanatory memorandum refers to a draft MSN 1874, but this does not appear to be available. The international market in marine equipment, especially for marine pollution prevention is likely to grow significantly in the coming years and will be accompanied by further regulations at IMO level.

[Mr Sheerman]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is our job as the Opposition to make sure that we tell the British public the real danger of a major incident in the turmoil post Brexit, which could pollute the seas right round this wonderful island of ours? Is that not the case? The Government have not done a risk assessment, or published a risk assessment, and they should reassure the British public that the possibility of disasters has been assessed and they are okay.

[Karl Turner]

I am assured in various Committees on which I have served that various standards have been tested and safety provisions are in place. We can only rely on what Ministers tell us, but I have been assured on a number of occasions that those factors have definitely been considered.

[Karl Turner]

The hon. Gentleman is extremely optimistic. Safety protections to guard against potential pollutants are better done collectively, in my view. We can always improve safety standards.

The instrument preserves the status quo for the shipping industry post Brexit, which is some reassurance to seafarers who rely on compliant equipment including in emergencies at sea, as my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield rightly mentioned. There are issues with the marketisation of marine equipment, especially safety and pollution prevention equipment, but they are deferred by the provision. Merchant shipping notice 1874 has not been made available as part of the process, although a draft version is referred to in the explanatory memorandum.

[Mr Sheerman]

I promise my hon. Friend that this is my last intervention on him. I have much more memory of this than the hon. Member for North Cornwall: until we were in the European Union and had European regulation, people swam in sewage all around the coast of Britain. It was a European regulation that cleared up our seas and oceans and made them decent. We stopped pumping sewage into the seas. Does my hon. Friend agree that the problem is that, without European regulation, we will be back in that situation and pollution will, again, make us the filthy man and woman of Europe?

[Karl Turner]

My hon. Friend is right that the regulations have improved standards. There is no doubt about that, in my view.

MSN 1874 was last issued in June, but a draft was not attached to the explanatory memorandum. When will the updated notice be distributed, and have the addresses of UK-based notification bodies changed since June? The explanatory memorandum refers to “minor familiarisation costs” that will result for the public sector and for business. What will that mean in practical terms for the shipping industry and for seafarers who use the equipment?

Finally, can the Minister explain a little more about the instrument’s effect on the new IMO regulations that cover marine equipment that are introduced after the instrument come into effect and before any future trade deals between the UK and the EU are agreed and implemented?

Draft Operation of Air Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Karl Turner

Monday 19th November 2018 General Committees

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I will be brief. As the Minister has already outlined, these amendments make minor changes to EU regulations as they come into UK law under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act. It is clear that the Government are attempting to mitigate any potential problems relating to the operation of air services once we leave the EU. There has been considerable concern, however, over operating licences remaining valid post Brexit. Therefore, we very much welcome this clarity. In this case, stakeholders have stated that the Government and the Department for the Transport engaged with them properly. We welcome that as well.

Labour Members believe that a strong aviation sector is crucial to the UK’s status as a global, outward-looking nation, and that is even more important following our decision to leave the EU. We believe that any new service agreements for the aviation industry following Brexit should seek to replicate the existing arrangements as much as possible.

[Mr Sheerman]

I am a bit worried that my hon. Friend seems to be so positive about this. We have just witnessed the Minister gambolling through—in an entertaining way, but very quickly—this very important piece of delegated legislation. This is complex stuff. Is this the template for what will happen under the agreement to leave the EU: that this kind of legislation will be rushed through in small meetings such as this, with no time to study it or ask for detail? If that is the template, I am very worried.

[Karl Turner]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. We are clearly concerned about the Government rushing regulations through, but he should be aware that the reason they have rushed this—if he wants to put it like that—is because the Opposition have pressured them for some months to bring forward the regulations to ensure that air service agreements are valid post Brexit. However, I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention.

It remains the UK aviation industry’s priority that the Government achieve a comprehensive, liberal new air services agreement with the EU in any final Brexit arrangement. There is not a huge amount of detail in the draft withdrawal document about what air services agreement will be in place beyond the transition period.

However, despite the ongoing chaos from this Government, we welcome the fact that last week, the European Commission—after much pressure from the Opposition, I must say—eventually published guidance confirming that flights between the UK and the EU would continue in the event of a no-deal Brexit. That was met with widespread relief from the industry.

[Mr Sheerman]

I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend’s very good speech, but what words have the official Opposition had with anyone in Ireland about how these regulations affect Ireland, and the relationship between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland? This is one industry where there is a very strong Irish element in the way that we operate. It is very complex indeed. What level of negotiation and discussion have the official Opposition had with the Irish Government on this?

[Karl Turner]

I have to be honest with my hon. Friend: I do not know the answer to the question. I suspect that colleagues higher up than me in the shadow team have had discussions with colleagues in the EU. For example, I know that the Leader of the Opposition has met officials in the EU.

The Opposition have always maintained that the aviation sector should have been the first priority for the Government in their negotiations with the EU. Given the chaos last week, is the Minister confident that there are no more problems coming down the road?

As this legislation does not make any substantive changes to licensing requirements for air carriers and aircraft operators, and there has been thorough consultation between the Department for Transport and leading stakeholders in the aviation industry, the Opposition support these measures. It is right that the aviation industry has been consulted comprehensively. The aviation Minister in the other place has stated that these amendments do “no more than appropriate”. We agree with that.

[Mr Sheerman]

I am sorry to intervene again. The Minister said that, as far as he is concerned, there will be no impact on existing services. How can he know that? How can the Opposition know that? I am worried that this big change in regulation will have a very big impact on existing services. We should be much more aware of our rights and responsibilities as parliamentarians in ensuring that things are up to the standard we expect.

[Karl Turner]

Again, my hon. Friend makes a valid point. I am sure the Minister has taken his comments on board, but it is a matter for the Minister to come back and satisfy the Committee.

[Mr Sheerman]

He said, “No impact.”

[Karl Turner]

My hon. Friend says from a sedentary position that the Minister said there would be no impact. I think the Minister has taken on board the points that my hon. Friend has raised, and I expect him to come back on that.

I have one or two questions of my own for the Minister. Given that the CAA will get further regulatory powers and become the licensing authority to deliver oversight and take measures against carriers if necessary, is he absolutely satisfied that it is fully resourced? Does he foresee any issues in that respect? I look forward very much to his response.