Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Jesse Norman

Thursday 8th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

Of course, I was delighted to see JLR’s commitment to investing in UK manufacturing and confirming its plans to bring electric vehicle production to the west midlands. Through our policies and investments, the Government are accelerating electrification and unlocking industry investment to meet our net zero ambitions. The automotive industry is a vital part of that process. This is a vote of confidence from the UK’s largest carmaker.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I say how pleased I am that, thanks to the wonderful people at Guy’s and St Thomas’s, I am back in operation?

May I ask the Minister not to get totally fixated on electric vehicles? There are a few companies establishing hydrogen-powered service stations for trucks up and down the country. With less impact on the environment, hydrogen has real possibility in this country.

[Jesse Norman]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman back to his seat. He will be aware that the Government are very interested in the potential of hydrogen, not just in heavier vehicles but also in maritime and, through hydrogen fuel cells, in aerospace. We take a technology-neutral approach, so I have been looking at all those things. I had the great pleasure of visiting JCB, which has pioneered a hydrogen-based off-road digger, and what a splendid machine that is.

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[Jesse Norman]

I thank my hon. Friend very much for her question. She knows, and I have already said, how important the safety of all road users is to the Government. This part of the A38 has a high collision rate and we want to address that with local authorities. A package of safety measures between Carkeel and Trerulefoot was announced as a pipeline scheme in the second road investment strategy for delivery in the future RIS. National Highways consulted on proposed safety improvements and continues to develop its plans in the light of feedback received. We will encourage it to accelerate that work.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is the Secretary of State aware of the anecdotally large number of learner drivers who deliver pizzas and that sort of stuff? They have learner plates. They have had no training. Is he worried? We have all heard anecdotally that there are lots of casualties and deaths. Has he any hard facts on that?

Chinese Consulate: Attack on Hong Kong Protesters

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Jesse Norman

Tuesday 18th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

I have already made that clear to the House, but let me do so again. I am not suggesting—as I said earlier—that there is a direct connection, or indeed, any connection, between that decision and a police investigation, but we need to establish the facts in a way that is official and not just, as it were, the presentation of a personal view. That process is continuing and when we have the answer to that, we will take action. That is entirely appropriate. One should, in these contexts, seek an absolutely objective basis on which to act, which takes in all the information that may be available. That is what I think the police and the prosecuting authorities, to the extent that they take an interest, will do.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I welcome the Minister back to the Front Bench. I know he has always had a laid-back style, but I really think he should get a little angrier about the disgraceful thing that happened in Manchester.

I have many friends from and in Hong Kong, who tell me that when they come to this country now, they feel intimidated. The Chinese influence is in our universities, in our major companies and everywhere. That has not just happened; it is part of a serious effort by China to infiltrate this country at every level. As I have said before in the House, the electricity supply to all of London and the south of England is owned by a Chinese company. Has this not gone too far?

[Jesse Norman]

The hon. Gentleman will know that there are plenty of ways in which this country has economic relationships with Chinese companies. In the normal course of trade, that has been to mutual benefit, but he is right that there is a need for concern about where there may be infiltration, coercion and the rest of it. That is a very live matter for the Government, which we have talked about it in the context of Confucius institutes and covert policing operations—as they may be—and I have drawn the House’s attention, and do so again, to the foreign influence registration scheme that is being introduced under the National Security Bill. That scheme has been created specifically to tackle covert influence in the UK.

HMRC Impact Analysis: Customs

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Jesse Norman

Tuesday 8th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

In general, as the hon. Gentleman will know, the gov.uk website is updated daily, but I take the point. As a man with many farmers in his constituency, I will ensure that the website is checked to see that the data is up to date.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I also recommend the Minister’s book on Burke as great bedtime reading; it is very good. Does he ever discuss the nature of modern conservatism with Dominic Cummings? Is it right that a Minister could have been on the radio at primetime this morning with Paul Johnson from the Institute for Fiscal Studies, but Cummings refused to let a Minister appear?

[Jesse Norman]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s kind words about my book, but I cannot comment on remarks that may or may not have been made or rebutted on a media programme of which I know nothing.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Jesse Norman

Thursday 2nd May 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is the ministerial team aware that an all-party group of Members of Parliament came together to secure the seatbelt legislation many years ago? After 13 failed attempts, we actually got it through on the 14th, and the number of lives saved and serious injuries prevented has been substantial. The Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, which I chair and which is still a vigorous cross-party group, is concerned by the report today that seatbelt wearing is declining. A quarter of the people killed on the roads last year were not wearing their seatbelts. Could we make it an enforceable offence with three penalty points? Can we take action on this?

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Jesse Norman)]

We absolutely recognise the original achievement of passing that legislation. I thank PACTS for the work that it has done on this report, which I warmly welcome. Needless to say, we are working very closely with it. We will look very closely at the report. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, we have a road safety refresh statement coming up over the summer, and we will look at this in that context as well.

Draft Aviation Security (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Jesse Norman

Thursday 28th February 2019 General Committees

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Jesse Norman)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Aviation Security (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. The draft instrument will be made under the powers conferred by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and will be needed if the UK leaves the European Union without a deal. As the Committee will be aware, delivering the deal negotiated with the EU remains the Government’s top priority, but of course we must make all reasonable plans to prepare for a no-deal scenario.

The draft instrument corrects seven EU instruments and makes minor changes to the Aviation Security Act 1982. The regulations contain the framework for providing security to passengers and for cargo travelling by air. They cover matters such as airport security, passenger and baggage screening, cargo screening, training and recruitment, and technical equipment standards. I will summarise the corrections that the draft instrument makes to the regulations.

Regulation 300/2008 establishes the framework for the aviation security regime within the European Union and sets out the common basic standards. The draft instrument makes changes to the scope of the retained regulation to reflect the fact that the UK will no longer be part of the EU after exit day; it does so by limiting its scope to the United Kingdom and by removing provisions that will no longer apply to the United Kingdom. The amendments also replace legislative powers exercisable by the Commission or member states with regulation-making powers exercisable by the Secretary of State, maintaining equivalent levels of scrutiny. In essence, the security screening requirements for all direct passenger flights to and from the UK will remain as they are today. That is the important thing.

Regulation 272/2009 covers screening and other matters. The types of permissible screening methods remain unchanged. References to Commission legislative procedures will be replaced by reference to domestic legislative procedures. Provisions relating to criteria for EU recognition of the equivalence of third countries’ security measures with EU aviation standards are deleted, because the concept of equivalence with the baseline standards contained in the retained EU regulations does not make sense in a UK-only context, where we apply additional measures over and above that baseline.

Regulation 1254/2009, the third regulation covered by the instrument, sets out criteria for allowing alternative, less burdensome security requirements to apply to airports or to demarcated parts of airports that deal only with flights, particularly non-commercial flights. As an example, such flights might involve light aircraft with a maximum take-off weight of less than 15,000 kg, law enforcement flights, flights for medical services, emergency or rescue services, and certain private or business aircraft flights. The draft instrument makes no changes to those criteria.

Regulation 2015/1998 makes detailed provision for the practical implementation of the measures contained in regulation 300/2008. The provisions cover access to airport security areas, airport planning, aircraft search, and passenger and baggage screening. It also covers matters such as cargo and rail security, security of supplies available in airport shops and on board aircraft, as well as recruitment and staff vetting procedures, training requirements and specifications of security equipment. All those elements are essential to aviation security. The instrument retains the provisions, subject to the necessary amendments to remove specific references to the EU.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg the Minister’s forgiveness for coming in slightly late; I was asking a question in the House. Can he reassure me that the regulations will simply move across to the UK so that we will have all the protections that we have under EU regulations?

[Jesse Norman]

Yes, I can confirm that, in line with the European Union (Withdrawal) Act, the purpose of the instrument is precisely to lift and shift regulations so that there is no substantive change between the position before we left the EU and the position afterwards. If I may, I will continue my speech.

[Mr Sheerman]

Will the Minister allow me to pursue him a little further on that? Some of us are becoming foot soldiers in the SI regiment and turn up here regularly to do our duty by scrutinising these SIs. Can he assure me that the Government are treating them all the same? Is this SI the same as all the others? Sometimes, when they are about something I care about and am really concerned about—I chair the Parliamentary Advisory Council on Transport Safety—I wonder whether they are a real opportunity to improve the regulations rather than just to take them as they are. Is there no scope for improvement?

[Jesse Norman]

Let me say two things. First, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, this is a very complex area and the draft regulations cover a wide range of subjects, including—I have listed some of them—airport security areas, planning, aircraft search, passenger baggage screening and many others. Secondly, we are not in a position to—indeed, we have made an undertaking to Parliament that we will not—change the substantive provisions, even where improvements are possible for policy reasons that are widely accepted across Parliament. That is because this is a lift-and-shift exercise. It should remain open to Parliament to scrutinise, through the normal mechanisms, any further legislation that changes Government policy.

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[Mr Sheerman]

Will the Minister give way?

[Jesse Norman]

No, let me finish my point. In many cases, the standards we choose will be higher—potentially significantly higher, as in some respects they are in the areas of airport security and aircraft security—than the EU regulations have been hitherto.

[Mr Sheerman]

I appreciate the Minister allowing my interventions. He and I work on many things together very harmoniously. May I say to him that those European diktats have kept my constituents and his safe for very many years? When we went into the European Union, many things, including baggage handling—preventing people getting illicit substances on planes, perhaps even including things that could destroy an aeroplane—were very casual indeed. We have a security system that has kept us safe for a very long time. Is that in danger? SIs about sharing data and information have been introduced in parallel with this SI. Those two things go together. Will the Minister assure the Committee that they will not be endangered at all?

[Jesse Norman]

We are wandering somewhat away from the SI before this Committee, but I am thoroughly enjoying what might be referred to as Thursday morning theatrics from both sides of the Committee. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Civil Aviation Authority has for many years been a trend setter, a path setter and a standards setter across the EU. Much of the benefit of the European Aviation Safety Agency has come from its taking those standards and promulgating them more widely. There has been genuine benefit on both sides. We have benefited from the promulgation of CAA standards across Europe, and we have benefited from the scrutiny and feedback that those standards have received from EU countries, and vice versa.

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[Jesse Norman]

As I said, as far as possible we are aiming to replicate the existing arrangements. With his laser-like eye for detail, my hon. Friend identifies an important area. The regime will have to change a little as a result of Brexit, as I will set out.

One key area of regulation 2015/1998 is the EU inbound cargo regime. The EU operates a regime known as ACC3, which stands for air cargo or mail carrier operating into the European Union from a third-country airport. That is precisely the area targeted by my hon. Friend. In essence, it is a requirement for air carriers carrying cargo into the EU from a non-EU country to hold security designations that confirm that they are screening cargo to the required standards and that a secure supply chain exists from the origin of the cargo to its point of entry into the EU.

Responsibility for administering the system, and for granting designations, is currently shared between member states. If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, it will no longer be part of that system, but it is critical that we maintain our inbound cargo security protections. The effect of the draft instrument is to retain the requirement that carriers must hold a security designation in order to fly cargo into the UK from third countries, and to apply that in a UK-only context.

The new system of UK ACC3 designations will be managed by the Civil Aviation Authority and the Department for Transport. To ensure a seamless transition on exit day, new UK designations will be issued to all carriers flying into the UK that currently hold EU designations. On expiry, carriers and screening entities will need to apply directly to the UK for new designations, which will be granted using largely the same criteria as in the existing system, to minimise any additional burden on industry.

Regulation 2019/103 makes amendments to regulation 2015/1998 that are already incorporated. It also contains measures that apply only after exit day, and are therefore not retained. The only provision in the regulation that is retained relates solely to the date on which the un-retained measures apply. As such, the provision is by itself meaningless, and the draft instrument therefore revokes it.

Regulation 72/2010 covers the requirements for Commission inspections of EU airports and national authorities that will no longer be applicable. The draft instrument revokes that regulation. The draft instrument also amends the Aviation Security Act 1982 to remove references relating to Commission inspections and Commission inspectors.

Finally, Commission decision C (2015) 8005 is a restricted, confidential instrument that provides additional but security-sensitive details on the aviation security requirements contained in the regulations. For example, it sets the technical standards for aviation security equipment, such as the materials and quantities, and details the methods and percentages of various screening requirements. The decision will form part of retained EU law; however, because it is security-sensitive and not published before exit day, it is not required to be published on or after exit day.

As an unpublished instrument, before and after exit, the decision cannot be scrutinised as the subject matter of legislation by Parliament. As such, the draft instrument cannot make any amendments to it. As the decision contains defects if it is not amended, the draft instrument revokes the decision. However, in order to retain the important aviation security rules contained in the decision, the requirements previously contained in it will be made the subject of a direction, which will be given by the Secretary of State under powers contained in the 1982 Act.

The direction will form part of the single consolidated direction that sets out our domestic aviation security requirements that apply on top of EU legislation. The content of the new direction will be disseminated to the same UK entities as those that currently see the EU decision.

[Mr Sheerman]

On the revocation item, has the Minister heard that the United Nations organisation that looks after the technology of air worldwide, the International Civil Aviation Organization, is very concerned about that part of it? Has he had a conversation with ICAO and with the CAA on that point?

[Jesse Norman]

I can confirm that my officials have regular and continuing conversations with both the ICAO and the CAA, and they have considered the correct approach in some depth. However, if the hon. Gentleman or the ICAO, through a different channel, want to write to express further concerns, they are welcome to do so.

The draft instrument ensures that in the event of a no-deal exit from the EU, there will be a legislative framework for aviation security that will continue to keep passengers, aviation infrastructure and cargo safe and secure. I commend the instrument to the Committee.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Jesse Norman

Thursday 14th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

Of course, that is a serious question. As my hon. Friend will be aware, we have very vigorous enforcement action being undertaken not only by the police but by the DVSA and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency to try to crack down on this problem.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is the Minister aware that only seven people were killed in the St Valentine’s Day massacre? Yet in this country, we will shrug our shoulders when 1,700 people die on our roads this year, as they do most years. When is he going to do something about investigating every death on the roads thoroughly, with a good centrally directed and well funded unit, and when is he going to do something about the 1.4 million people a year who are being killed on the roads worldwide?

[Jesse Norman]

The hon. Gentleman regularly raises this issue, but I have rarely had a Valentine’s Day present as generous as that one. As he will know, contrary to his imputation, we take every road death and injury with great seriousness. As he also knows, since he will have done his homework, this country has the second-best record in the EU for road fatalities, and we stand by that record.

Draft Motor Vehicles (International Circulation) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Order 2019

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Jesse Norman

Wednesday 30th January 2019 General Committees

[Jesse Norman]

My right hon. Friend’s point is well taken; he is absolutely right to point out that Spain is governed by the other convention. People travelling to Spain will need that IDP. If they are travelling to Spain through France, they will need an IDP for both countries. That is well set out on the Post Office website and other websites, including gov.uk. We hope that will do a lot to alleviate any possible concerns.

The document would guarantee the recognition of UK driving licences after exit day and will also recognise 1968 format IDPs when presented by overseas visitors to Great Britain, in the same way we already do in this country for IDPs issued under the earlier 1949 Geneva convention and the 1926 Paris convention. All formats of IDP will cost £5.50, which, it is important to emphasise, is a charge that has not increased since 2004.

Although UK nationals will not be required to purchase an IDP if, as we expect, this country achieves agreements across the EU, the amendment is still required as the 1968 format IDP will be required to guarantee licences when driving in over 75 countries outside the EU. It is therefore important that the amendment is approved, since the 1968 Vienna convention will still come into force on 28 March 2019, irrespective of whether the UK ceases to be subject to EU law on 29 March or at the end of the implementation period.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I apologise to the Minister for arriving late; my Whip sent me to Committee Room 12, where I sat rather bemused because the wrong statutory instrument was being discussed.

This issue is becoming increasingly complicated, is it not? Yesterday I had a delegation from the insurance industry in my office. They pointed out that the green card that goes with the driving licence will not be valid after we leave the European Union, which means that no British driver in Europe will be protected against being hit by an uninsured driver. Does that not make life very dangerous for anyone from this country intending to drive in Europe?

[Jesse Norman]

The fact of the matter is that, at the moment, many countries may be required to recognise it by law, but on the ground they may not do so. One of the effects of an IDP is precisely to give a recognisable, international-standard document that allows any police or enforcement agency to see under what licensing arrangement the person is travelling. There is no doubt a slight increase in the complexity, which is a result of the requirement needed to exit the EU. However, this provision is activated only in the unlikely contingency that we do not have an EU-wide relationship that allows for mutual recognition, but we fully expect to.

[Mr Sheerman]

Will the Minister meet the insurance industry? They are exercised about this. If someone gets hit by an insured driver in Britain, there is a security that automatically delivers protection. The one called the green card for people driving in Europe will end, so every driver from Britain who goes through continental Europe will be at risk of being hit by an uninsured driver with no insurance cover. Will he assure me that he will meet the insurance industry to talk about that?

[Jesse Norman]

I have learned over many years that interventions from the hon. Gentleman are rarely short, and this has been no exception. I meet the insurance industry very regularly, and I promise him that its representations have not been unheard or unmade in this context. He is right to highlight them, but they are only one part of the wider picture. This order has no direct effect on insurance as such; it is about the driving permits themselves.

UK motorists drive to Europe every year, using ferries or the Eurotunnel, and they drive in Europe, whether for business or leisure. UK holidaymakers rightly want the option of hiring a car while abroad. Although the Government are still in the process of achieving agreements with the EU, as I have described, we are committed to minimising disruption to UK motorists following our exit. The Department is taking the appropriate measures to facilitate that.

The 1968 convention facilitates international road traffic and increases road safety through consistent traffic rules. In preparation for exit day, this country ratified the 1968 Vienna convention on 28 March 2018. That international agreement will come into force one year later, on 28 March—the day before the UK leaves the EU. Following exit day, the convention will guarantee the recognition of UK vehicles and driving licences when used in 23 EU member states, plus Norway and Switzerland and more than 70 other countries globally. The earlier 1926 and 1949 conventions also remain in place, guaranteeing UK licences in four EU member states, plus Iceland and more than 40 countries globally, including Japan and the USA, if the motorist presents the supporting IDP with their driving licence.

Draft Operation of Air Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Jesse Norman

Monday 19th November 2018 General Committees

[Jesse Norman]

I cannot comment on the wisdom or otherwise of comments made at the time, but on 7 March this year the President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, said,

“I am determined to avoid that particularly absurd consequence of Brexit that is the disruption of flights between the UK and the EU.”

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Apropos of that intervention, may I say that I have been a chairman of the Transport Safety Commission for many years, and am chair of the committee on air safety for the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety? The industry—this vital sector to our economy and our country—is very worried. I hope that these regulations give some comfort to many in the industry who believe that there are many unresolved issues affecting our ability to travel by air.

[Jesse Norman]

The Committee will understand that this is one of a series of affirmative resolution statutory instruments that we are putting before the House. We can discuss each of those issues as it applies to them, but I am sure the hon. Gentleman is pleased that the EU recently commented that, for example, there will be no difficulty in overflying Ireland, which was one of the worries that people had. I expect that positive progress to continue.

As the Department responsible for aviation, we have conducted particularly intensive work to ensure that there continues to be a well-functioning legislative and regulatory regime for aviation. In the technical notices in September, we set out how that would work, and this instrument provides the means to deliver some of those outcomes.

It should be emphasised that this legislation is required only in a scenario in which the UK leaves the EU without a deal or an implementation period. The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 converts EU law as it stands on exit day into domestic law, and preserves laws made in the UK to implement EU obligations. It will provide continuity and certainty to industry and consumers without prejudice to the outcome of the negotiations. However, as in other areas, some fixes are inevitably required to address deficiencies in the retained EU legislation to ensure it continues to function effectively once the UK has left the EU.

[Mr Sheerman]

I take it that the Minister is in regular communication with the Civil Aviation Authority. Is he also talking to the Irish Aviation Authority? As he knows, one of our biggest carriers, Ryanair, comes under the Irish authority, not the CAA, for regulation.

[Jesse Norman]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The officials and I would not be surprised if, in due course, Ryanair makes an application for a UK operator’s licence, in the way that many other carriers have done already. We are in regular contact, directly and through the CAA, with our opposite numbers among the officials to head off those kinds of concerns and to give that kind of comfort.

Although it is quite tightly defined, this SI relates to a formidably technical and complex area. Many of the references to the EU in what I am going to say later should be taken to include the EEA, depending on context. EU Regulation 1008/2008 provides the basis for the internal market in air services and consolidates provisions in a number of prior regulations that had gradually liberalised the market for air services within the EU. The regulation sets out harmonised conditions for licensing air carriers in the EU and provides the right for any EU-licensed air carrier to operate on any route within the EU without prior authorisation.

The regulation prohibits market distortions that had historically existed in Europe, such as restrictions on pricing or air carriers’ ability to set air fares freely and lease each other’s aircraft. It also sets out common rules for the provision of public service obligations—that is, scheduled flights to peripheral regions that would not otherwise be commercially viable. A further element of the internal market for which the regulation provides is what is known as wet-leasing. A wet-lease is when one air carrier leases an aircraft together with its crew, maintenance and insurance from another operator. EU air carriers can freely wet-lease aircraft registered in the EU, provided that that would not endanger safety, but restrictions are imposed on the lease of aircraft from beyond the EU.

The EU has also pursued an external aviation policy by making comprehensive air transport agreements with third countries, and by seeking consistency in the provisions of the bilateral air service agreements between member states and third countries. Regulation 847/2004 establishes a procedure for member states to notify each other and the Commission, and to work together on the negotiation and conclusion of air service agreements.

The draft regulations we are considering today fix deficiencies in the retained EU regulations, as I have briefly described, alongside the preserved domestic legislation made to implement aspects of those regulations, so that the statute book continues to function correctly after exit day. The effect of those changes was described in the technical notice published in September, which set out how the UK would regulate air carriers. Many of the changes make it clear that the retained legislation applies only to the UK, so, for instance, references to “Community air carrier” are replaced with “UK air carrier”. Alternatively, another amendment requires air carriers to have their principal place of business in “the United Kingdom” rather than in “a Member State”; that is one to which the hon. Member for Huddersfield referred earlier.

Since the UK would no longer participate in the EU’s external aviation policy and the Commission would have no authority in the UK, Regulation 847/2004 would be revoked. The UK would be free to negotiate ambitious bilateral air services agreements with other countries without regard to the Commission or to EU member states.

The European Union (Withdrawal) Act ensures that operating licences previously issued to UK air carriers remain valid. An operating licence is required by air carriers before they can offer commercial air transport, and ensures that UK air carriers are financially robust, appropriately insured and managed by fit and proper persons. A separate air operator certificate is also required, which ensures that the air carrier meets essential safety requirements. While all commercial aircraft operators require an air operator certificate to show that they are safe, some will not provide air transport services: for example, a hot air balloon offering pleasure flights would not do so and thus would not require an operating licence.

Separate instruments on aviation safety, security and the rights of air passengers will be brought to the House in the coming weeks. UK-licensed air carriers will need to continue to meet all the substantive requirements for a valid operating licence, with one exception: the requirement in Regulation 1008/2008 for air carriers to be majority owned and controlled by EU nationals would be revoked, since this is a definition that would no longer apply to UK nationals.

That requirement would be redundant for two reasons. First, nationality requirements are routinely specified in the terms of our air services agreements, which determine the eligibility of air carriers to operate under them, based on the nationality of their ownership. We expect that to include any agreements with the EU. Secondly, UK air carriers would require a route licence in order to operate beyond the UK, and there is a nationality requirement for a route licence. UK route licences predate the EU operating licence, and in many ways were superseded by it, so air carriers were exempted from the requirement for a route licence for operations to the EU.

Route licences serve a useful purpose in that, unlike an operating licence, conditions can be attached to the licence preventing air carriers from operating certain routes. Route licences are provided for free by the CAA to any UK carrier which requires one, and one of the conditions for a route licence is that the applicant should be a UK national, or an undertaking controlled by UK nationals. The Secretary of State also has long-established powers to instruct the CAA to waive this requirement, which he has historically done, most recently for easyJet UK and WizzAir UK.

As a result of this instrument, the rules for wet-leasing foreign aircraft will remain stable. UK air carriers seeking to wet-lease a foreign-registered aircraft will be required to demonstrate to the satisfaction of the CAA, as they do today, that doing so would not endanger safety. If that aircraft was registered in a country other than in the EU, they would also have to demonstrate to the Secretary of State that safety standards equivalent to the UK’s would be met.

[Mr Sheerman]

I appreciate that we are limited in time, but the Minister is going quite fast through some quite technical stuff. What happens to the air accidents investigation branch and its remit? In future, how will it co-operate across Europe on accidents? We have gone through a long period where we have had very few air accidents, but recently we have had some pretty bad ones; these things go in cycles. The great thing about the European sector is that there is a very good comprehensive agreement on the investigation of every fatal accident. Could he put my mind at rest on that?

[Jesse Norman]

Yes, of course. Sir Christopher, you will understand that, as I said, there is a lot of material to get through and because of taking interventions, I have been keen to try to compress the amount of time that I spend on my feet.

[Mr Sheerman]

I wanted to let the Minister catch his breath—give him some breathing space.

[Jesse Norman]

It is all very welcome. The hon. Gentleman will understand that the CAA predates the European Aviation Safety Agency, and in many ways has acted as a model, and in some respects a coach, to it. The AAIB has a well-established reputation in its field. I have no doubt they will continue to co-operate very closely. The precise arrangements remain part of the wider picture of the negotiation, but there is absolutely no reason to think that the close co-operation that currently exists should not be extended after withdrawal next year.

I will continue on the issue of wet-leasing. If the aircraft in question was registered in a country other than in the EU, UK carriers would also have to demonstrate to the Secretary of State that safety standards equivalent to the UK’s would be met and that the lease was justified on the basis of exceptional needs, or to satisfy seasonal capacity requirements or overcome operational difficulties. Permission may be refused, of course, if there is no reciprocity with regards to wet-leasing to the country in which the aircraft is registered.

Notwithstanding the continuity provided for and the fixes that I have described, this instrument makes a number of changes to reflect the fact that EU-licensed air carriers would no longer enjoy the automatic right to operate to, from or within the UK. Contracts for public service obligations in the EU can be won by any EU-licensed carrier, but changes made by this instrument would mean that only UK-licensed air carriers, and carriers from countries with which the UK has exchanged the right to operate wholly within each other’s territory, would qualify for PSO contracts in the UK.

As all the PSOs in force in the UK are currently operated by UK-licensed air carriers, there will be no impact on existing services. Similarly, existing domestic regulations provide for a rarely used process in cases where the frequency of operations between the UK and another country is constrained by provisions in the relevant air service agreement.

Although air services are not included within the scope of the World Trade Organisation, there is an international legal framework for the operation of air services—the Chicago convention of 1944. One of its provisions is that scheduled international air services are prohibited except with the special permission of the state concerned. The UK provides this permission through the air services agreements it concludes with other countries and the issuing of foreign carrier permits by the CAA. Amendments made by this instrument would require EU air carriers to apply for a permit before operating to the UK. That will ensure that all air carriers operating to the UK have full and proper safety oversight and that their aircraft are properly maintained and operated.

We envisage granting permits to EU carriers to continue operating to the UK, and I was pleased that, in its Brexit preparedness communication on 13 November, the Commission confirmed that it intends to reciprocate for UK air carriers. In addition to the announcements about visa-free travel, the Commission said that UK air carriers would still be able to fly over the EU, including Ireland, and to land in and fly back from the EU. Those points reinforce what I believe is a positive and encouraging emerging picture of future co-operation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jesse Norman]

I am grateful to all hon. Members who have made interventions and speeches in the debate so far. Let me pick up the various points that have been raised, because they are of considerable interest. I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East for his recognition of the level of engagement that my officials and the CAA have had with their opposite numbers across Europe. He is absolutely right about that, and I know they will be grateful that the Opposition have recognised the work they have been doing.

Secondly, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East says the Opposition’s position is that any agreement should seek to replicate the current law with a comprehensive agreement governing air services, safety, and the like. Of course, that is absolutely right, and the Government agree with him. He has asked me, as has the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith, whether we can be confident that problems will not emerge, or might not emerge in the future. The answer is that no one can predict the future, but the Government believe there is every reason to think that air connectivity will be retained between the UK and the EU. It is in no one’s interest to disrupt air services, and I remind the Committee that the European Commission has confirmed in the past few days that it intends to reciprocate grants of permits to EU air carriers in relation to UK carriers. It has also made announcements about 90 days of visa-free travel and overflights across the EU, including Ireland. All of that points in a direction that gives confidence to anyone who might be concerned, and I am grateful that the issue has been raised.

[Mr Sheerman]

On that point—

[Jesse Norman]

No, I will come to the hon. Member for Huddersfield’s speech, and he can intervene on me at that time. [Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Jesse Norman]

Having taken many interventions, Sir Christopher, I am sure you will understand if I respond in an orderly way to the points raised. If the hon. Member for Huddersfield wishes to intervene in relation to his own speech, he is welcome to do so.

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East also raised the question of whether Ministers were happy with the resourcing of the CAA. Of course, the answer is yes. The CAA is already the licensing authority for UK carriers. It has conducted internal assessments and, in discussions with officials, has determined that it does not require additional resources, so we think that the CAA will remain the robust and highly effective organisation that it has been for many years.

The hon. Member for Huddersfield raised a series of questions. The first, which he raised in his interventions, was about the AAIB. I want to recognise the work that the AAIB has done very rapidly in relation to the tragic incident at Leicester City football club. That shows what a high-quality organisation it is, and we are grateful that it did not waste any time. The hon. Gentleman asked whether the legislation has been rushed through, and spoke eloquently about parliamentarians’ duty to their constituents to make sure that legislation has been properly scrutinised. Of course, he is absolutely right about that. Precisely for that reason, and because I know he takes an historical interest in air travel, the Committee can be sure, I am certain, that he read carefully the technical notices outlining the Government’s position when they were published some months ago. I am sure we can take it that he knew—I am surprised he did not mention it in his speech—that this statutory instrument was published on 17 October and, therefore, colleagues have had a full month to debate and consider it.

[Mr Sheerman]

The Minister is being very generous in giving way and I do not want to be unfair to him. We work on transport safety in different sectors very harmoniously. However, can I just ask him how many chief executives and chairmen of major airlines has he spoken to on this? How many people has he spoken to in Europe? I want to know chapter and verse who he has spoken to and at what level before he put this forward to the Committee.

[Jesse Norman]

I am very happy to answer that. As the hon. Gentleman will know from his close scrutiny of the Government, the lead Minister on this brief is Baroness Sugg. I am the spokesman in the Commons. She has met many chief executives across the industry. I can assure him that she is extremely expert and has taken plenty of advice and input from all of them. I do not think that there can be much question about the fact that, had the hon. Gentleman wished to avail himself of the time available, he could have given this legislation the scrutiny that he says it deserves. It surprises me that he has not given it that scrutiny.

[Mr Sheerman]

Is the Minister saying I have not done my homework?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Jesse Norman

Thursday 1st March 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Jesse Norman)]

Since becoming road safety Minister, I have met the hon. Gentleman several times, as well as a broad range of road safety organisations and others with an interest in road safety, to discuss many different issues. Those institutions include RoadPeace, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, the RAC, the AA and many others.

[Mr Sheerman]

I congratulate the Minister on his keen interest in this subject; I have been impressed by him so far. However, is it not the case that there are still 1,720 knocks on the door by a policeman or a policewoman who says that your daughter, your son, your mum, your dad, your grandmother or your grandfather are dead? That is the truth, so we cannot be complacent. Can we now look to having a national investigatory body to investigate every death on the road? Will the Minister also talk to his overseas development colleagues, given that 1.3 million people worldwide die in road accidents every year? Is it not time that we did something to help them?

[Jesse Norman]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, we are very closely involved in supporting nations around the world to raise road safety standards; he has been involved in that himself. With regard to a national body, we have looked at that. I am sure that he will take some comfort from the fact that only today we are laying regulations that allow driving instructors to undertake motorway driving with learners. That is part of a much wider pushback to improve driving quality and reduce fatalities.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Jesse Norman

Tuesday 8th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Jesse Norman)]

I will not add to what we have already said about the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon, but I want to celebrate—the industrial strategy will celebrate—the work of world-leading companies such as GE Energy in my hon. Friend’s constituency and their capacity to benefit from opportunities arising from low-carbon technologies.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

T3. I have always got on very well with the Secretary of State, but may I ask him not to be complacent? I have just been to a meeting of the leaders of Russell Group universities, who are saying that the sector is in meltdown post-Brexit in terms of staff, students, and research and innovation. What is the plan? I am known for asking, “What’s the plan, Stan?” What is his plan to put this right?