Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Barry Gardiner and Joan Walley(9 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
13. What steps he is taking to help households improve their energy efficiency.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
14. What steps he is taking to help households improve their energy efficiency.
Plastic Bags
Debate between Barry Gardiner and Joan Walley(9 years, 12 months ago)
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Barry Gardiner
The Minister pleads in his own defence, and I will let the industry judge for itself, but the industry has been clear that it was deeply unhelpful of the Department to announce that the Government no longer saw fit to take part in some aspects of waste management and that it was down to the industry just to get on with things.
The rationale behind the Government’s position was that they should not intervene in areas where there was no market failure. The problem, however, is that I happen to believe that 2,309 items of plastic per kilometre on UK beaches constitute market failure. The remarks of the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) about the levels of plastic litter experienced around the UK coastline bear witness to that. They are disgusting, but they are also a warning about the level of plastic that has not washed up on our beaches and that is still floating out at sea. The Government have just not thought through waste management in this respect. If they had, they would have listened to the industry and delivered a workable policy programme. They have not done that.
What percentage reduction in plastic bag use do the Government expect will be achieved as a result of their policy by 2020? Will it be as much as in Wales, where there is a simple charging system without all the loopholes and caveats the Government have added?
When does the Minister think that a biodegradable plastic bag will fulfil the criteria for exemption from the single-use plastic bag charging policy? My hon. Friend made an incontrovertible and admirable point: where else in Government policy does one create in law an exemption for something that does not exist? It really beggars belief.
The Committee’s report stated:
“The policy around the exemption for biodegradable bags appears rushed and taken before reviewing existing evidence or considering the concerns of all stakeholders.”
If I may say so, I think my hon. Friend’s Committee let the Government off lightly by putting it so delicately.
The report continues:
“It appears to us that Defra is trying to use innovation to justify a rushed and flawed policy proposal to allow an exemption for biodegradable bags.”
The question we must ask is why. Can the Minister give a reasoned explanation— because there is certainly not one in the Government’s response to the Environmental Audit Committee’s report—of why the Department has gone into such contortions to do that? The waste management industry and environmental scientists are clear about the fact that the exemption is absurd. The British Plastics Federation has made it clear that DEFRA made the decision on the exemption before consulting manufacturers. British Polythene Industries opposed the exemption and stated that it would increase the use of plastic bags and undermine recycling targets. What progress has been made as part of the small business research initiative on biodegradable bags?
Objections to the policy on environmental grounds have been as emphatic as the industry’s. A professor of marine biology and adviser to DEFRA told the Environmental Audit Committee that he was surprised by the proposals to exempt biodegradable bags. His research found that approximately 98% of plastics, including so-called biodegradable plastics, remained after 40 weeks, in part because of a lack of light reaching the bags under water. There is no such thing as a biodegradable plastic bag; the plastic just degrades into smaller pieces that are more easily ingested by marine life. That means that they are more easily able to contaminate and pollute the marine environment.
Quantities of litter on UK beaches have more than doubled since 1994, according to the Marine Conservation Society’s Beachwatch survey, which is the source for the figure of 2,309 items per kilometre found in 2013. Last year English beaches had, on average, 45 plastic bags per kilometre, an increase of just over 20% since 1996. Let us consider the impact of that on wildlife. The northern fulmar does not regurgitate plastic, but accumulates it in its stomach. Data collected between 2007 and 2011 show that 95% of fulmars in the North sea had plastic in their stomach—62% exceeding legal limits.
The Government’s response to the Committee’s report states:
“Several key impacts of the policy (e.g. reduced disamenity impact of litter; reduced damage to marine life) are difficult to measure in quantitative and monetary terms.”
Indeed they are, but that does not mean they are not real. They are what classical economics regards as externalities, and, as so often with the present Government, externalities are ascribed a nil value. That is the problem. The Government have chosen to discount the importance of litter and, significantly, of damage to marine life, because it is too difficult to work out what those things cost. That is the wrong approach. Litter ruins neighbourhoods; plastic waste damages entire marine ecosystems.
The waste management industry, perhaps more than any other, can produce growth that increases the productivity of our economy and creates new, skilled jobs. The job creation rate for recycling and reprocessing is significantly higher than that for landfill. It has been estimated that one job in landfill is created for every 50,000 tonnes of waste. By contrast, SITA estimates that job creation per 1,000 tonnes of waste for recycling ranges from 0.75 to as many as 40 jobs, depending on the material. That is between 38 and 2,000 jobs for every 50,000 tonnes of waste. That is the industry on its own, making an immensely valuable contribution to jobs and growth; but it is even more important as a driver of the wider economy.
Joan Walley
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is widespread concern that the Government are stepping back from supporting the waste management sector, and offering only a limited programme of waste prevention activities? There are opportunities for innovation and growth in jobs, but the sector is not being supported by the Government to the extent it should be.
Barry Gardiner
I am happy that I gave way to my hon. Friend, because, as on most such occasions, she is right. She will have heard the Minister giving his justification for the Government’s approach to the waste management industry and the issue of the circular economy. The point that she and I are trying to make is that the opportunities are huge; and so are the risks of inaction. The Committee warns in paragraph 68 of its report:
“The Government’s waste management strategy needs to be clear, consistent and easy to understand in order to secure reduced carbon emissions, improved rates of recycling and avoid contamination of waste disposal streams. Gains in other areas could be far more important than can be generated by bags alone.”
Again, it is a question of an integrated approach to and coherent policy on waste management. The Committee was right to highlight that; the Government should not have a stand-alone policy on plastic bags. The policy is, frankly, an unscientific mess. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North has pointed out that no genuinely biodegradable plastic bag exists. Paragraph 33 of the Government’s response to the report states that they are
“aware of the concerns regarding contamination of the recycling stream with biodegradable plastics and are addressing this with feasibility studies”.
I should be grateful if the Minister would update us about the progress of those feasibility studies.
In places the Government’s response is incoherent. Paragraph 24 states that
“the Government intends to require retailers to publicise the number of bags sold and how the proceeds of the charge have been spent.”
That is from a Government who are anti-regulation; but three paragraphs on, paragraph 27 states:
“Requiring businesses to report specifically on the VAT on plastic bags would also introduce additional administrative burden for those firms involved.”
Goodness me; within three paragraphs the Government contradict themselves on whether regulation on plastic bags is appropriate or burdensome for business. The policy is incoherent, and an incoherent response has been given to a coherent report.
It is alarming that the policy has been allowed to get so far when Government officials and advisers express serious concerns about the impact on the marine environment, in particular. If the Government do not abandon the absurd parts of this policy and adopt the Environmental Audit Committee’s recommendation for a simple universal charge that will reduce plastic waste and litter as part of a wider, comprehensive and coherent waste-management strategy, I assure the House that the next Labour Government will. It is an essential component of a resource management strategy worthy of the name.
Joan Walley
May I say first that the Minister has been most gracious in allowing so many interventions? Perhaps that was more a function of the attendance at the debate, but it was very helpful in flushing out some of the issues.
We have had a very wide-ranging debate. I am particularly pleased to have heard the interventions from the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton), who I know takes marine pollution concerns seriously. The contributions certainly from our Front-Bench spokesperson, the hon. Member for Brent North, and from the Minister have helped us perhaps not always to clarify, but certainly to be better informed.
Joan Walley
I am not sure whether I am able to take interventions in the summing-up. I shall take guidance on that from you, Mrs Brooke.
Annette Brooke (in the Chair)
I will allow a brief intervention. I suspect that that will not be the case, but we do have time on our side, but this must be a one and only, not an inquisition.
International Wildlife Crime
Debate between Barry Gardiner and Joan Walley(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
I, too, congratulate the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) on securing this very important and timely debate. I also congratulate the Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), on all the work that she and her Committee have done. I am mindful of the warning from the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) about ex-Ministers and their briefs, so I will try to confine my remarks in that respect.
We have heard some excellent speeches on how wildlife crime is a threat to important species and habitats both in the UK and around the world. The Environmental Audit Committee inquiry into wildlife crime, published in September 2012, welcomed the significant progress made since its predecessor Committee’s recommendations in 2004. It also made key recommendations on the steps that must be taken if the UK Government’s international leadership on wildlife crime is to be maintained and extended.
Unfortunately, I do not think we have seen enough progress in responding to that very clear and coherent set of recommendations. In fact, my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North, the Chair of the Committee, is on record as having described the Government’s response as “a missed opportunity'” that showed
“the Government have not considered the matter in the cross-cutting way that is now needed given the urgent threat to endangered species.”—[Official Report, 10 October 2013; Vol. 568, c. 148WH.]
At this point, I must welcome the Minister for Government Policy. He is from the Cabinet Office, which shows some of that cross-cutting responsibility. By my reckoning, however, eight of the 11 recommendations made by the Committee on enforcement have still not been accepted.
Joan Walley
I can see a reaction among those on the Government Benches, but the important point is that the Committee’s inquiry showed that this is a cross-cutting issue. We cannot just have a response from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs or the Home Office: there needs to be a joined-up response. When we made the application to the Backbench Business Committee, we requested that a member of the Cabinet be here to ensure an all-inclusive, coherent approach from the Government, and I welcome the fact that the Minister is here today.
Barry Gardiner
I hope the debate provides the spur to action that is needed. I hope that in his closing speech the Minister will set out in more detail what further action the Government intend to take to address specifically the recommendations in the EAC’s report, and to ensure that the UK is playing its full part in the fight against international wildlife crime.
The task ahead of us remains significant. In the past two years alone, more than 1,600 rhinos have been slaughtered by poachers, according to reports from the Wildlife Conservation Society, the International Union for Conservation of Nature and other organisations. Moreover, about 1,000 park rangers have died in the past decade defending these animals, and I pay tribute to the Daily Mirror’s campaign this week highlighting the sacrifices of rangers and their families.
Illegal wildlife trade continues to generate an estimated $20 billion each year for the criminal gangs and terrorist groups who perpetrate this evil, and that does not even include the products of the illegal timber trade or illegal fishing. Those figures should give a sense of urgency and timeliness, not just to this debate but to the Government’s response. I am proud that the previous Government made important progress in helping to shape the international effort to tackle wildlife crime. As a Minister, I had the privilege of releasing two white rhinos back into the wild in Kruger national park in 2006. It was a wonderful, if—I confess—a slightly scary moment. Close up, they are enormous.
The following year, I represented the UK at CITES CoP—conference of parties—14, in The Hague, where we resolved to strengthen national legislation and penalties to deter illegal wildlife trade; to strengthen public understanding of the benefits of sustainable international trade and of the negative impacts of illegal wildlife trade; and to increase the provision of financial resources for the operation and implementation of CITES. CITES trade regulations now apply to about 35,000 species, about 3% of which are prohibited, which is significant progress, but the fact remains that many species traded internationally play an important role in the provision of ecosystems services and in supporting local livelihoods, so ensuring that the use of, and trade in, these species is legal and sustainable has many and much wider benefits for the local communities and countries of which they are such icons.
I am proud that, alongside our international work, the previous Government set up the national wildlife crime unit in 2006, which is now responsible for assisting with the enforcement of wildlife law and the prevention of wildlife crimes. It is important to understand that its work does not stop at the UK’s borders, and that it has a vital role in reducing the demand for the products of wildlife crime and in targeting UK citizens involved in the international trade.
Despite these steps forward, however, as the Environmental Audit Committee has said, there is a risk that further progress will not be made without clear action from the Government. It is vital that there be no let up in our efforts. Wildlife crime in Africa poses a clear threat, not just to internationally important species but to the whole security of the region. Some of the comments from hon. Members about al-Shabaab, al-Qaeda and others reinforced that point. The UK must, therefore, continue to meet its obligations to clamp down on the trade in the products of wildlife crime, including elephant ivory and rhino horn. Poaching remains a serious problem in Africa. It has strong links to drug and human trafficking and terrorism, as hon. Members have said.
The London conference on illegal wildlife trade, hosted by the Prince of Wales, is, as everyone has acknowledged, a tremendous opportunity to gather together international experts to work together on this issue. I echo the remarks by the Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee about how fortunate we are to have, in the Prince of Wales, someone showing the leadership that he continually does on these issues. The conference is a perfect opportunity for some key pledges to be made. It is time to build on the UK’s strong international reputation, achieved—I hope the Minister will agree—thanks to the diplomatic efforts of previous Governments.
My experience of the international negotiations on wildlife crime is that the countries with the credibility required to improve global law enforcement and to reduce global demand are those that walk the walk. It is the job of the Minister for Government Policy to ensure that our commitment to tackling international wildlife crime continues to have real substance. The substance will not come simply from hosting conferences, important as the London conference clearly is; it will come from delivering. I hope that the Minister will answer some specific questions about how that delivery will be achieved.
The Government’s decision to make the need to reduce demand for illegal wildlife products one of the main goals of the conference is very welcome. Will the Minister tell us what the Government aim to achieve in terms of the strengthening of CITES trade regulations? As has already been said today, the Government’s response to these challenges requires a co-ordinated approach across Whitehall. Does the Minister accept the Environmental Audit Committee’s finding that the Government are failing to work effectively because Departments are not co-operating? Can he describe the conversations that he has had with his colleagues in the Ministry of Defence, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Home Office and the Foreign Office about improving the Government’s co-ordinated, joined-up response? What, specifically, does he intend to do to ensure better, outcome-focused joint work between DEFRA, the MOD, the Foreign Office and Home Office to ensure that that improvement takes place?
Energy Bill
Debate between Barry Gardiner and Joan Walley
Barry Gardiner
I agree that it is important to address the question of what the costs to British industry and British consumers will be. As the hon. Gentleman will accept, the independent Committee on Climate Change has already addressed that question, and, indeed, its remarks and recommendations were based precisely on its assessment of the likely costs and benefits and the signals that currently exist in the market; but he has made a fair point. We certainly need to ask what signals exist, and what effect either costs or benefits are likely to have on our national well-being.
It is heartening to know that the Government want to hear what the Committee on Climate Change wants to say in three years’ time. Perhaps they will now extend that courtesy further by not just hearing but listening to what the committee is saying today.
The other argument that the Government Whips have deployed against the amendments is that sector-specific targets without road maps are meaningless. That is, to a degree, relevant to the point made by the hon. Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride). This is not only about the targets; it is also about the road maps relating to the implementation of those targets, and that, of course, is precisely why we have a levy control framework. It is also why the EMR report of the Committee on Climate Change calls on the Government to extend to 2030 funding allocated to support the development of less mature technologies under the framework, to present
“options to support mobilisation of new sources of finance, including roles for the Green Investment Bank and Infrastructure UK”,
and to publish in the EMR delivery plan
“the amount of capacity that the Government intends to contract”
over the next period.
The final argument that we have heard from Ministers is that they do not wish to sacrifice jobs and growth for the sake of the environment. That is the most fallacious argument of all. It was dealt with very well in some of the pre-Committee hearings. Andrew Buglass from the Royal Bank of Scotland told the Energy Bill Committee that there is a cliff edge and that cliff edge is making it very difficult for supply chain investors to invest in the UK. Overcoming the insecurity created by the 2020 cliff edge does not require more public money or even the promise of more money. It requires coherence in the form of a 2030 target that proves to industry that the demand for low-carbon energy will continue to rise beyond 2020.
The shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), has previously quoted comments made by Mr Buglass in an Energy Bill Committee sitting, observing that Mr Buglass stated that a 2030 target
“is absolutely critical from the conversations I have with potential supply-chain investors because they quite rightly point out that it is very difficult for them to take investment to their board if they really only have visibility on three or four years-worth of work.”––[Official Report, Energy Public Bill Committee, 15 January 2013; c. 51, Q154.]
We must put that target in place if we are to incentivise potential investors and achieve the investment in low-carbon industry that we need.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
I support the decarbonisation target. Does my hon. Friend agree that this issue is not just about what DECC is doing, but what the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is doing? There are many investors looking to invest in constituencies across the country, but they will not make that investment if the uncertainty arising from the Government’s current position persists. It is therefore vital that we get some kind of assessment of where that investment can go, because that will help to create the green jobs that we all want.
Barry Gardiner
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of the great mistakes this Government have made on energy policy is to confine it simply to energy itself, and not to consider it in the wider context of British industry. That is why I am delighted that the new Minister for Energy, the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), has a spanning brief over the two Departments. I hope he will be able to bring that to bear, because we must see how our energy policy is related to our exports. Unfortunately, last night the Government did not accept the amendments on carbon capture and storage, but we must understand that the growth of CCS as a new technology in this country will impact not only on our own energy policy here in the UK, but much more widely in terms of the exports and the impact we can make on climate change across the globe and in countries such as China and India, which will be using coal for the next 30 or 40 years. That is the true prize. Our own energy consumption and our own emissions are small compared with those of the rest of the world, but the impact that our industrial policy can make is enormous. That is why we have to integrate energy and business, as my hon. Friend says.
Potential investors in the UK have a policy risk concern; they are concerned about what the future shape of our energy policy might be. Siemens told us if we wait until 2016 to set a decarbonisation target for 2030, it and many of its competitors are likely to delay or cancel planned investment in the UK. The Energy Secretary is shaking his head. I know he is not shaking his head to indicate he disagrees that that is what Siemens said, as he has read the Hansard Committee reports and he knows that is precisely what it said. He may disagree with those comments, but that is what industry is telling us, and we ignore what it is saying at our peril.