Finance Bill

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Jacob Rees-Mogg

Monday 2nd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner]

From a more-than-sedentary, almost recumbent position, he says, “Hear, hear! Let’s go to 20%!” Does he really think that there is not a limiting point at which the argument tips? Does he really think that there is not a point below which, instead of more revenue coming into the Exchequer, there is a dramatic loss of revenue? Of course there is.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I do indeed think that there is a point at which revenue would drop off, if rates got low, and the Laffer curve shows such a point. However, as a general point, I think that the lower the rates are, consistent with raising the revenue that is needed, the better, and that we have not tested the argument properly to see how low we could go.

[Barry Gardiner]

Well, there we are: the Great British public are being treated to an experiment. “We want to test how far the Laffer curve theory can go.” Is that really the Government’s policy? Is it really their policy to see how low they can get tax before the economy collapses?

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way once again. Sadly, I am not Her Majesty’s Government. He must address his comments to those on the Treasury Bench, rather than to me.

[Barry Gardiner]

I am sure that it is only a matter of time. In so far as the hon. Gentleman seeks to speak for his party—

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Debate between Barry Gardiner and Jacob Rees-Mogg

Monday 16th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I agree with my hon. Friend that VAT is a tax of immense complexity. However, it is an essential tax for the revenue-raising that this country needs and it has to include in it things that all of us like and would rather not be taxed. Equally, it will include things that some of us do not like, do not particularly wish to eat and do not mind how heavily taxed they are. If I am put the question, I would choose a sausage roll over a pasty, but I know that others have different views.

I also want to mention briefly the freezing of the threshold about which the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) spoke interestingly. Again, the Government were right. Because the big step is being taken to raise thresholds altogether, it makes absolute sense, at no cash cost to any current pensioner, to freeze this level and allow it to even out so that we have one threshold. Every time we have variance in tax levels, be they rates or thresholds, we simply employ more people at Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, we have a more expensive cost of collection and we fail to achieve the objective of simplicity across the tax system.

This has been a great Budget and I wish to finish by speaking briefly about this terrible question of tax avoidance. I agreed with my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) when he cited that notable judge with his phrase about allowing the taxman to take the biggest shovel. If people avoid tax, that is legal because we, as Parliament, have allowed them to do so. The following clauses in part 1 of the Bill allow legal tax avoidance: 13, 14, 15, 16, 19, 20, 38, 39, 40 and 44. All those clauses in the first 50 allow tax avoidance of which the Government approve. We will all approve of some of them, because they allow MPs £30,000 tax free when they leave Parliament, allow cars that must be made secure because people are at risk to be tax free and allow people in particular situations and circumstances to pay less tax than they would in normal circumstances. The enterprise initiatives under clauses 38, 39 and 40 allow investment that the Government want to encourage. Those are all examples of tax avoidance that is liked by the Government.

We have to be fair to taxpayers. We can only expect them to follow the law of the land as it is written—the black letter law of the land. We cannot expect taxpayers to look at their affairs and say that the Government might like them, if they are feeling kind, to pay more tax than they are being asked for. None of us has an obligation to do that and it is wrong and dangerous to elide tax avoidance and tax evasion.

[Barry Gardiner]

Does the hon. Gentleman therefore disagree with the Chancellor, who said on Budget day that he wanted the approach to be applied not simply according to the black letter of the law, as the hon. Gentleman puts it, but according to the spirit of the law?

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I do not believe that the law has a spirit; that is unduly philosophical for my view of tax law. Tax law is what Parliament passes and I have grave doubts about a general anti-avoidance principle. I do not think that we can reasonably expect people to pay tax on the basis of what Parliament might want, as they can only do it on the basis of what Parliament has passed into law. To undermine that is to undermine the rule of law on which we all depend, and it is fundamentally unjust to elide tax avoidance and tax evasion.

Although I know that I have unlimited time and that people are gathering for the excitement that the winding-up speeches hold in store, let me reiterate that this is a great Budget and a good Finance Bill. The criticisms have been fundamentally trivial but the basic point is that we will have—as Tories always have and as they always have had when they have come in after Labour Governments—sound money.