Children and Families Bill

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Baroness Young of Old Scone

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I hope I am not the only person who is going to speak at this point. I would find it really awesome to be the only one who caused this rather rare event of an amendment being carried over between two sessions of business.

I support Amendments 264, 265 and 266 on standardised packaging. I do not want to make too many of the points that have already been made—at breakneck speed, may I say; it showed that we can speed up if we put our minds to it—but will bring in a few others. There really is quite a consensus stacking up that there is a pressing case for standardised packaging.

The World Health Organisation says that standardised packaging would produce,

“the maximum reduction in the marketing effect of tobacco packaging”.

Australia has adopted it, as everybody knows, and the early evidence is that the standardised packs there are making smoking less appealing and have not caused any problems for retailers, which was one of the predictions. Scotland and Ireland have committed to it in principle, and I have it on very good authority that the Health Minister in Wales is convinced of the evidence. New Zealand, Canada, France, Norway and India are all considering this way forward.

We have huge support here from the medical colleges, including the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, from the BMA, and from charities such as my own charity, Diabetes UK—I declare an interest as chief executive—as well as Cancer Research UK and the British Heart Foundation. They all believe that there is an increasing body of hard evidence. Of course, the public support standardised packs, with 64% polling in favour.

Standardised packs are really important because packaging is the last advertising route left to manufacturers and tobacco companies are spending a huge amount on pack design, and they do not do that for no reason. They recognise the truism that kids and young people are attached to brands. If you have ever tried to persuade your child to buy a pair of supermarket trainers you will know exactly how attached to brands they are.

When I was a kid and all my friends were starting to smoke, there was a league table of cachet. I am really old so Navy Cut was considered a bit more gentlemanly than Wills Woodbines. Embassy and Regal were the great working man’s fags and of course Silk Cut was for the ladies. Then the 1980s came and people took up Camels or Gauloises or, the height of cool, Lucky Strike. I was terribly tempted, I must say, by Balkan Sobranie, which were wonderfully coloured little cigarettes with gold filters. I had a friend, Brian, who smoked them and I used to sit there with one unlit, toying with this beautiful, chic sophistication while he puffed away. Alas, he died at 51 of lung cancer.

Helena Rubinstein used to say:

“In the factory we make cosmetics but in the store we sell hope”.

But of course we are not talking about selling hope; we are talking about selling addiction, cancer, heart disease, poor quality of life and early death for our children and young people.

Noble Lords have already shown that more than 200,000 kids aged between 11 and 15 start smoking each year. We really should take the step. Why do the Government continue to delay? I am sure the Minister will tell us. If they are waiting for the emerging impact of the Australian policy, they should not. The conclusive evidence could take two or three more years with another 500,000 kids addicted to a killer habit. We know that HMRC believes that there is no evidence that standardised packaging would increase the illicit trade that is one of the concerns, so there is no case for waiting for the Australian evidence. Why does the Minister believe there is a case for further delay? Will he please simply give in and get the Government to support Amendments 264, 265 and 266? I particularly commend Amendments 265 and 266, which strengthen the amendment further.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Earl and I have been discussing the regulation of tobacco products since 2008. At that time he was often sceptical about the efficacy of our proposals for the retail marketing of tobacco products. I particularly welcome these amendments because it is important that we keep this issue alive. Since 2010, my noble friend Lord Hunt and I, as well as others, have asked a series of questions about the enactment of the legislation concerning the display of tobacco products. I congratulate the noble Earl on making that happen successfully. It has been a success: it is now normal to walk into your corner shop and not see tobacco products side by side with comics and chocolates, which used to normalise tobacco for our young people.

It is important to be clear in what we are talking about. There are all the statistics in the world that people can talk about in terms of cancer, addiction and all those other things. However, we are talking about whether we are prepared to allow the over-powerful and wealthy tobacco companies to gain their next market for the profits they need to make from tobacco products. That is what this amendment is about. They can exist only if they continue to recruit young people to tobacco addiction so that they have their next generation of smokers, and that is what this is about. It is about reducing the number of young people who, by becoming addicted to tobacco and tobacco products, provide tobacco companies with their next generation of smokers. We know how hard it is to stop smoking once you have started, and I speak as an ex-smoker.

I hope that, over the years when the noble Earl has distinguished himself as the Minister in his job at the Department of Health, he has had access to all the information and research, and now has at his disposal all the facts about tobacco addiction and all the terrible diseases that this brings to everybody, so that he will be convinced that we need to take this forward. I hope he will tell the Committee either that the Government will support these amendments, or that they are not necessary because the Government intend to take plain packaging forward as quickly as possible.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Thornton and Baroness Young of Old Scone

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Young of Old Scone]

My Lords, I am afraid that I will be even more discordant. I do not want to denigrate the congratulations that have been offered to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, and her colleagues and the process that has been gone through to reach agreement on this amendment. However, I share the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, that we must not forget not only how deeply unpopular the Bill is but that it is flawed.

I had not intended to speak on this amendment but I cannot let the moment pass as I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, referred to a spirit of improvement that she was seeking in moving this amendment. However, we have to remember that the improvement is a bit like trying to paint the face of a harlot; at the end of the day, it is still the face of a harlot, no matter how improved. We are seeing real impacts on healthcare in this country as a result of the Bill, as we speak. I come from a background of having run health services for 20 years. I have also been the regulator for health and social care and am now part of a patients’ organisation. Patients are telling me that we are seeing the fragmentation of responsibility for the commissioning of healthcare and that services are suffering as a result of the financial squeeze; for example, diabetic specialist nurses are disappearing and patient education is being cut. The things that are important for the quality of care are being removed.

I am experiencing a huge loss of momentum in getting any change implemented in the care for people with diabetes. Whenever I speak to the Secretary of State, he tells me that it is no longer his responsibility and that I should talk to the NHS Commissioning Board. However, when I speak to the NHS Commissioning Board, staff say, “We are still working out how we do this”. When you talk to clinical commissioning groups, they are still not clear about the framework in which they are operating. Therefore, we are losing one, two or three years of headway on issues where there needs to be real improvement for patients.

Because of the preoccupation with reform, we are seeing a lack of real focus on the task in hand, which is how we make the health service more efficient. The Minister and the Secretary of State have repeatedly told me that these reforms will deliver that necessary improvement in care and efficiency. However, my experience over 40 years leads me to believe that that is not the case. In saying that, I am not making a political point; I speak from my knowledge of what is happening in healthcare. We will continue to try to improve the Bill because we are good and honest toilers in the House of Lords, but we are trying to improve something that is deeply flawed.

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, we must be thankful to my noble friend Lady Jay and the Constitution Committee for their initial work and their second report, which has enabled us to reach the point that we have. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley and the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for saving us from the gloopy treacle of self-satisfaction into which we were sinking, to which my noble friend Lady Jay referred.

I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Laming, the Convenor of the Cross Benches, for chairing the seminars that have been referred to. We all know that chairing seminars attended by opinionated Members of this House and lawyers is not an easy task. He did an excellent job and led us gently towards the consensus that has resulted in the amendments being tabled that we are discussing. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, the noble Lords, Lord Hennessy and Lord Owen, whose wisdom brought the great importance of this issue to the attention of the House.

We support this amendment as it is clearly an improvement on what was in the Bill originally. We are still perplexed as to why we could not simply have kept the 2006 wording, but we are where we are. However, I wish to repeat the question that I have already put to the Minister. The Secretary of State has let it be known that he does not think that this measure makes a difference. That shows no respect for the work that we have undertaken and the place in which we find ourselves. Therefore, I should like clarification on that point. We need to know why that is the case. This measure constitutes a significant change because, as I think the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, said, it will have repercussions on other parts of the Bill. I welcome that and hope that it is the case. We need to look at the changes proposed in this and the following amendments as they should make easier our job of testing other parts of the Bill against them.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, that this is still a very political Bill. The noble Lord’s party and the Liberal Democrats pushed the original drafting on the Secretary of State’s powers through the Commons. I have tried to keep my remarks about the highly politicised nature of the Bill separate from this debate because I thought it was important that we should also recognise the work that has gone on and the consensus that we have reached in this House. That is due to a combination of clarity, wisdom and our consideration of the Constitution Committee’s report. I compliment noble Lords on my own Benches because we were determined not to accept the well meaning and imaginative original proposal of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. We had very trenchant support from noble Lords such as the noble Lord, Lord Owen. The Minister, in his wisdom, took these clauses off the Floor of the House and we are now where we are. That is a great credit to everybody concerned, including my own party. Therefore, we are very happy to welcome this amendment and hope that it bodes well for our future discussions on Report.