Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th October 2020 Grand Committee

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, it may be for the assistance of noble Lords if I make a short statement before we recommence proceedings. As noble Lords will be aware from my noble friend Lord Bethell’s letter to Peers of 13 October, the Government have tabled a number of amendments for consideration in Grand Committee. Many of these amendments are designed to address criticisms of the Bill expressed by noble Lords at Second Reading, and in particular by your Lordships’ Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and Constitution Committee, in an endeavour to provide reassurance to this Committee at an early moment.

Unfortunately, it has since come to light that the Government’s intention to move these amendments in Grand Committee, which we had believed was implicit in my noble friend’s letter and understood from subsequent discussions, had not in fact been clearly and properly communicated. I further understand that there was a two or three-day delay in noble Lords on the Labour Front Bench, and perhaps others, receiving the letter. I apologise to the Official Opposition, Liberal Democrat Peers, noble Lords on the Government Benches and those on the Cross Benches for the shortcomings in our communications, which, I need hardly add, we shall use our utmost endeavours not to see repeated.

There is a substantive reason why the Government wished to move their amendments in Grand Committee. It is that, according to the clear advice we have received, a legislative consent Motion by the Northern Ireland Assembly cannot be put in motion until such time as the government amendments to which I have referred become part of the Bill. Were we to delay approval of the amendments until Report, our clear advice was that this would put back the Northern Ireland legislative consent process by up to three months. Such a delay would in turn have serious consequences for the completion of this Bill, whose importance in the context of the United Kingdom’s exit from the European Union cannot be overemphasised. It is very important for the health of the public that we achieve a timely completion which does not leave us without a means of passing necessary regulations at the start of 2021.

These were the reasons why, in the short adjournment that took place during last Monday’s Grand Committee proceedings, we asked noble Lords to allow two government amendments to go through on that day. We did so particularly bearing in mind that the alternative to moving the amendments was to withdraw them, which might in turn have signalled to the Northern Ireland Executive that the amendments no longer represented government policy. We are sincerely grateful to noble Lords for their understanding and for the agreement reached on that occasion. As I have indicated, we made that request to noble Lords in good faith, driven by clear legal advice relating to the process around Northern Ireland consent Motions. Since then, some doubts have been cast on whether that advice was in all respects accurate. It is still our belief that it was, but we are seeking urgent confirmation of this, which we shall convey to noble Lords at the earliest opportunity.

More importantly, however, for this Committee, we have received unequivocal legal advice from the Public Bill Office that, notwithstanding any amendments approved in Grand Committee by unanimity, it is open to the House, and indeed to individual noble Lords, to return to the issues covered by such amendments on Report and to debate and vote on any further amendments that noble Lords wish to table. That means that by allowing government amendments to go through in Grand Committee, noble Lords would not be precluded from returning to those issues, in any way they chose, on Report. On behalf of the Government, I undertake that the Government will raise no objection to this if it is the wish of noble Lords that such further debates take place. If, notwithstanding the assurances I have given, any noble Lord wishes to object to a government amendment spoken to in Grand Committee, the Government will withdraw that amendment. In the meantime, it is the Government’s wish to enable all noble Lords to engage with Ministers and officials as fully and as regularly as they may require in an effort to achieve what we all desire for this important Bill, which is understanding and, if possible, consensus across the House.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I thank the noble Earl for that statement, which is extremely helpful. I am alarmed, or surprised, that we are at this stage looking at a grey area about whether or not it is necessary for these amendments to be moved and accepted. It is very important that that is clarified, and I would just like to make one or two other points.

Grand Committee is for probing; it is for consensus, and then it is up to the House to take the decisions on Report about that. These amendments, which we are being asked to nod through, really are not consistent with what the Companion says Grand Committee is there for, so the clarification that we will have to return to these at a later stage is, of course, absolutely necessary.

However, that also means that on Report we will have a Bill before us that is not the same Bill as we have now. It will have been significantly amended in some very significant areas of policy. So I am writing to the Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers Committee today to ask them to look again at the Bill. When the amendments have been accepted, it will not be the same Bill as we have now.

We will not negative the amendments today, because I accept the noble Earl’s statement and, on the balance of risks, the Opposition would not wish to delay the Bill for three months, into next year. We can see the dangers that that would represent. However, I ask the Government to examine the proposal made by my noble friend Lord Hunt to the Minister and the Bill team in a meeting to discuss the issue. That was that they should look at paragraph 8.127 of the Companion and consider removing from the Bill all the government amendments concerned with this issue. We could then take those in a group at the end, on the Floor of the House. That would give us time to do the stuff we have not yet done and discuss the substance of the amendments.

If the Minister and the Bill team had come to us a month ago and said, “We’ve got this problem with the Northern Ireland consent process, and this is what it means,” we would not be having this discussion now, because we would have worked out how to resolve that problem. I regret that that is not what happened and I hope that we will now move forward in a more positive way. Finally, we will look carefully at what is added in Grand Committee as a result of these very particular circumstances and we may seek to delete or amend some of the government amendments at the next stage of the Bill.

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

With the Northern Ireland component, a time constraint was imposed on the Committee, and people have been looking at ways of solving the problem since our previous meeting. Since 8.30 am I have been in various meetings with various people looking for ways forward. The one described by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is on the table and has been agreed by all party spokespersons. It was finally agreed at a meeting with the Minister and others at 1.30 pm. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his help in resolving this issue.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

I am grateful to both noble Baronesses for their responses. I think that this provides a basis on which to proceed with our Grand Committee debate today, pending further clarification on the matters that I referred to earlier between now and Wednesday, our next Grand Committee day. I can assure noble Lords that my colleagues and I will endeavour to achieve that clarity, which we will disseminate at the earliest opportunity.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I thank the noble Earl. I think that we probably need to continue this discussion, to make sure that we end up in the right place, with a Bill that we can take forward to Report.

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Moved by

[Baroness Thornton]

8: Clause 1, page 1, line 8, leave out “have regard to” and insert “act with a view to ensuring”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment places a duty on the Secretary of State to act with a view to ensuring, rather than have regard to, safety, availability and UK attractiveness when exercising powers.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

The amendment, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Hunt, gives the Secretary of State a duty to act with a view to ensuring, rather than having regard to, safety, availability and UK attractiveness when exercising the powers in the Bill. The Bill states:

“the appropriate authority must have regard to … the attractiveness of the relevant part of the United Kingdom”,

and we want to change that. However, there is no definition of attractiveness in the Bill.

The Independent Medicines and Medical Devices Safety Review, led by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, published in July, focused on safety issues with just three medical interventions. Along with these, recent scandals such as those relating to metal-on-metal hips and PIP breast implants, show the need for strong regulatory oversight. Patient safety must be prioritised, including where there are competing considerations, such as the attractiveness of the UK as a place to conduct clinical trials and supply medicines and medical devices.

To address this, we believe that either the attractiveness clauses should be removed, or a statutory definition of attractiveness should be included in the Bill, along with a further provision that the appropriate authority should always prioritise safety. I beg to move.

[Lord Sharkey (LD) [V]]

I shall speak briefly to Amendments 9 and 13. I should start by saying that I enthusiastically support Amendment 8, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. We all know that the phrase “have regard to” lacks any real force. Like her amendment, our Amendments 9 and 13 are intended to strengthen Clause 1(2), whose opening words read

“In making regulations under subsection (1), the appropriate authority must have regard to”,


followed by a list of the things to which it must have regard. Amendment 9 would change those opening words to read, “In making regulations under subsection (1), the appropriate authority must have regard to, and in the case of regulations not subject to section 42(6), (7) or (8), must publish with the draft regulations an assessment of their impact on,” and then the list of things to which regard must be had.

Clause 42(6), (7) and (8) are excluded because they contain urgency provisions and may now anyway make use of the “made affirmative” procedure. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that there must be a full assessment of the impact of any regulation on the three specified areas. This applies to all three of the areas and is of particular importance in the assessment of safety and how it is to be prioritised, in subsection (2)(a).

Amendment 13 addresses the issue of assigning priority to the safety of human medicines, as do other amendments in this group. It would rewrite subsection (2)(a), so that instead of reading,

“the safety of human medicines”,

it would read “the priority of ensuring the safety of human medicines”. Other noble Lords have tabled amendments suggesting different ways of ensuring this priority and I look forward to hearing their contributions. But whatever the variations in approach, it is obvious that a strong, clear and unambiguous statement of the priority of the safety of human medicines needs to be inserted in the Bill.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I will have one more go to get the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, to join us. Lady Jolly? It is rather sad calling into the void. I take it that she is not able to join us, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his reply and all noble Lords who took part in what has been a worthwhile, interesting and sometimes rather impassioned debate.

The Minister is probably being slightly optimistic in thinking that we will not attempt to implement as much of the report of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, in this legislation as we can, because we are not sure when the next Bill where we could do so will come along. He might think about that. A little while ago, we had a Bill that would have been perfect for this report’s purposes but, unfortunately, we never got any further than Second Reading.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for his support as we have moved through slightly difficult times in the past few days. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, knows that she has our support for the recommendations in her amazing report. We will do everything that we can from this side of the House to make progress.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, is quite right to remind us of the fact that we are dependent on animals for making sure that our medicines are safe. We should never forget that.

My noble friend Lord Hunt was quite correct when he said that patient safety needs to be central. In fact, my noble friend’s remarks reminded me of the time when I was number two to the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, when he was a Minister in the House. He was absolutely passionate about patient safety and how it could be implemented. He also made a coherent argument for the fact that you could ultimately save money if you got patient safety right from the broad GP level all the way through to the implementation of new drugs and so on.

The remarks from the noble Lord, Lord Patel, were a tour de force. They illustrated again to us, if we did not already know, that his experience and knowledge are of enormous use to the Committee.

The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, was doing a balancing act, saying “Ooh, attractiveness, ooh, patient safety, how is that going to work out?” He started off by saying that there should not be a trade-off but I think that he might have come to the conclusion that there will be one.

Between them, the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, and the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, brought enormous wisdom to this discussion. Both of them were balanced in the way that they expressed the need to put patient safety at the centre of the Bill.

The Minister and my team and I need to discuss the difference between “having regard to” and “with a view to ensuring”. The two things are not the same; this is not just about semantics. We probably need to have that discussion between now and the next stage of the Bill. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 8 withdrawn.

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[Lord Sharkey (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 15, but I begin by supporting Amendment 16, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. I strongly agree about the importance of the UK being seen as an attractive place to promote medical innovation.

Amendment 15 is in my name and those of my noble friend Lady Jolly and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, and I am very grateful for their support. The amendment addresses Clause 1(2)(c). As we have just discussed in the previous group, subsection (2) lists what an appropriate authority must have regard to when making regulations under subsection (1). Subsection (2)(c) specifies that the appropriate authority must have regard to,

“the attractiveness of the relevant part of the United Kingdom as a place in which to conduct clinical trials or supply human medicines”.

But we have, in extraordinary circumstances, accepted the Minister’s Amendment 14, so that the text will now read,

“the likelihood of the relevant part of the United Kingdom being seen as an attractive or favourable place in which to conduct clinical trials or supply human medicines”.

That is not a formulation that lends itself to easy measurement.

I listened very carefully to the Minister’s brief explanation of the merits of his amendment, but I was unable to see a clear and actionable distinction between his new version and the old one. It was all getting a little theological—“angels dancing on the head of a pin” sprang to mind. In any case, the new Government amendment shares two defects with the old version.

The first is that they are both completely unambitious. We should be looking at least to maintain, and preferably to increase, the attractiveness of the UK as a place to do clinical trials or supply human medicines. I spoke last Monday about the critical importance of clinical trials to the UK’s global leadership in the life sciences. I have already noted that the number and share of clinical trials has declined since 2016, and we now rank behind the US, Germany and Spain. Because of Covid, we have abandoned 1,500 trials and suspended 9,000 more. We need to do better than simply to have regard to the attractiveness or the likelihood of being seen to be attractive. We need explicitly to maintain or improve that attractiveness, as our amendment proposes.

The second defect in both the Minister’s first and second versions of subsection (2)(c) is that they fail to mention manufacturing. Why is the appropriate authority not required to have regard to maintaining or improving the attractiveness of the UK as a place to manufacture human medicines? The ABPI raised this issue in its briefing for Second Reading, saying that, in addition to having regard to the attractiveness of the relevant part of the UK to conduct clinical trials or supply human medicines, the ABPI would also value an assurance from the Government that secondary legislation will support the attractiveness of the UK as a destination to develop and manufacture human medicines.

The ABPI has a point. I raised this question, and the ABPI’s position, with the Minister in a meeting on 13 October. In that meeting, the Minister’s officials replied that they thought that manufacturing was covered in other regulations. Will the Minister confirm that and tell us which regulations explicitly require the appropriate authorities to have regard to the attractiveness of the UK as a place for developing or manufacturing human medicines? If, however, there is no such statutory requirement elsewhere, would the Minister consider adopting Amendment 15?

Amendments 58 and 78 would make the same provisions as Amendment 15 but for veterinary medicines and medical devices.

I should also say that there are obviously enough opposing or various views on the attractiveness issue to make it clear that we will want to return to this subject on Report, not only in the context of Amendment 14. I look forward to the Minister’s response to Amendment 15.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I thank all the speakers who supported our Amendment 20 and the amendments that follow on from it. I need to start by placing on the record that we do not agree with the Government’s amendments to this clause but we will not object to them. Were we not in the situation of basically having to agree to put these amendments in the Bill, this is a very good example of where we would need to have a different kind of debate. Looking specifically at the Government’s amendments, I think that adding the word “favourable” does not clarify the meaning or elucidate anything. Since we are not absolutely certain what “attractiveness” means, I am not sure we can be clear what “favourable” means either.

Our amendments, and others that noble Lords have tabled, would take the first stab at defining “attractiveness”. I am very attracted to the amendments that the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, spoke to, because the idea of improvement is also very important. We are in the same territory and we will need to put further thought into this between now and the next stage of the Bill.

My noble friend Lord Hunt was completely correct when he spoke about the need to address how slow we are in this country in the uptake of new medicines and innovations. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, said that if we do not define “attractiveness” we might end up with the sort of undesirable trade-offs we discussed earlier today.

We have had a very interesting and useful discussion—the kind of discussion we should have in Grand Committee—where various points of view come together. We can see that we might end up with a completely new amendment at the next stage that will define “attractiveness” in the Bill and talk about the need for improvement and innovation. We will probably need to put our heads together between now and then.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, this has been an important discussion as to what attractiveness of the UK means. We have already moved on this issue with our amendments. We are still listening. I thank noble Lords for an instructive and wise discussion of this issue.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, offers a definition in Amendment 15 that would include manufacturing. My noble friend Lord Lansley and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, suggest adding “medical innovation”. In Amendment 20, the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and others set out a number of additional aspects, such as

“favourability to the establishment of research, design or manufacture of medicinal products or related services”

I reassure all those noble Lords that it is our instinct that the consideration of “attractiveness” as written in the Bill is sufficiently broad. It contains multitudes. While processes such as the clinical investigation of devices are not specifically listed as a consideration in Clause 12, they are covered in the current wording. Manufacturing is of course a vital element of the supply chain. Any impact on manufacturing will be relevant when considering the attractiveness of the UK as a place to supply medicines.

I acknowledge that the term “attractiveness”, as noble Lords have remarked in conversation, is not ordinarily found in legislation. However, I believe it is largely one of common sense. We all wish to protect the ways in which the UK is attractive. In 2015, the ABPI estimated the value of the life sciences sector to be £30.4 billion. Some 482,000 jobs were supported by the sector. We wish to protect that and to be a place for both innovators and generic manufacturers.

That is why this test is essential. It is a reminder, but it does not need to be comprehensive in the legislation. It needs simply to rule in, not rule out. That is why manufacturing is not explicitly mentioned, nor the other factors, although it is covered. Were we to list all the various aspects of how medicines and devices are made, we might miss something. We might interpret this list as prescriptive, rather than illustrative, and not cover an equally important but novel aspect of the future.

I hope that the government amendments provide further clarity. While noble Lords have drawn attention to specific aspects of how the UK is attractive, which are very important, their amendments are unnecessary. However, if there are particular considerations that the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Patel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, have concerns about—I note words such as “procurement”, “scale up”, “adoption”, “take-up of innovation” and “data-driven technologies”—I ask them to write to me. If further reassurances can be provided on why we consider this to be the right construction, I will be happy to respond.

In this instance, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, is therefore willing not to move Amendment 15, and that other noble Lords do not feel compelled to move their amendments.