Assets of Community Value (England) Regulations 2012

Baroness Thornton Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2012 Grand Committee

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, I am a farmer and a landowner. In the recent past I was a Norfolk councillor. I use the words recent past because I stopped being a councillor almost five years ago.

I thank my noble friend Lady Hanham for all the time and effort that she has spent on this issue. The Minister and her team have worked tirelessly to ensure that it hits the intended spot and has no unintended consequences. I am certain that the rural community is most grateful for all the hard work that they have done.

I have no problems with these regulations, but I had hoped that they would clarify two or three issues in the Act, all relating to Section 88. First, land in the existing use category is of community value,

“if in the opinion of the authority … the non-ancillary use furthers the social well-being or social interests of the local community and … it is realistic to think that there can continue to be non-ancillary use”

serving those objectives. This raises two questions, on which the regulations and the Act are silent. I had hoped that these regulations would clarify these matters. First, when is a use non-ancillary and, secondly, what evidence needs to be put before the local authority in determining whether in its opinion a relevant use is realistic?

The second category of land of community value is the land in past use. If in the opinion of the local authority, there is a time in the recent past when an actual non-ancillary use fulfilled the two objectives of furthering social well-being or social interests of the local community,

“and it is realistic to think that … in the next five years … there could be a non-ancillary use”

made that met either of these objectives, it is land of community value.

This “past use” category also raised my third question: what is the recent past? In September 2011, the Assets of Community Value—Policy Statement said that the Government’s view on the recent past,

“is that we will leave it to the local authority to decide, since ‘recent’ might be viewed differently in different circumstances”.

This will cause uncertainty for landowners as the recent past may be the past 10 or 15 years for one local authority and the past two or three years for another. Can the Minister provide more clarity on what is meant by “recent past” so that there is some consistency between local authorities?

If asked my opinion, I would say that up to five years would be a reasonable time, hence my saying, “In the recent past I was a local councillor”. I suggest five years for two reasons. First, the Act already says that,

“it is realistic to think that … in the next five years … there could be non-ancillary use”.

It already uses the five-year benchmark. Secondly, an asset drops off the register after five years anyway. Therefore, anything up to five years ago would be reasonable; anything later would be the distant past. I would be most grateful if the Minister would address those three issues.

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I have a slight sense of déjà vu. Here we are again discussing this matter, with me supporting the Minister and congratulating her on bringing forward these regulations, as she promised in the course of the Localism Bill. I have one or two questions for clarification.

I agree with the noble Earl that these are quite complex regulations but I also accept what the Minister said. Having read the part about the Land Registry three times, I still do not really understand it and can see that there are some complex interests to balance—those of landowners and those of the legitimate aspirations of local community organisations. That is, as it were, where we came in. I think these regulations do that.

My concern, if I have one, is whether it is too complicated for community organisations to access easily. We will not know that until the whole thing is rolled out and starts to work, or not. Therefore, I ask the Minister whether there is any intention to monitor—in, say, two years’ time—the effectiveness of this legislation and what the issues are for landowners and community organisations.

My second question is on a point of clarification. The Explanatory Notes outline the characteristics of community organisations. I read the Explanatory Notes first because they were more accessible than the regulations. They go into how you recognise what different community interest groups are. Therefore, do the regulations take account of unincorporated organisations? The regulations say that unincorporated community organisations can bid for community assets, which is exactly as it should be. However, if the Explanatory Notes say one thing and the regulations say something else, it is very important that local authorities and those whose land or property is in question are completely clear that unincorporated community organisations have the right to claim an interest in the community asset. It is really a question of clarification, which I am sure can quite easily be resolved. I am assuming that the reasons for which this instrument was drawn to our attention in terms of public policy issues relate to the amount of resources and time that local authorities are expected to put into it. The noble Baroness gave an explanation for that.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, first, I declare my interests as a farmer and landowner as detailed on the register. I echo the comments of my noble friend Lord Cathcart as to the energy and hard work that has been put into ensuring that sense prevails with these regulations following many discussions.

I raise three minor but important points which I hope my noble friend the Minister will help the Grand Committee with. They relate, first, in paragraph 14, to compensation regulation. Owners of listed assets are subject to time limits throughout the assets-of-community-value process; indeed, that is enforceable in law. Yet the local authority is currently under no timetable-limited obligation to respond with a written reason. I wonder whether it would not be reasonable that there should be some understanding that the local authority should be responding in reasonable time; I put that at about six weeks. There may be procedures whereby a local authority should respond, but I would welcome clarification from my noble friend.

The other questions relate to relevant disposals in Schedule 3 and the Crichel Down rules. It gets perhaps rather too technical for me, but my understanding is that, in order to conform with the Crichel Down rules, there should be in the regulation an inclusion of land acquired under threat of compulsory purchase. Can my noble friend clarify that point?

Finally, I am concerned as to the definition of “undertaking”, and how restrictive that may be, particularly the suitability in terms of transfer between related companies, which particularly relates to farms and estates. I would like my noble friend to assure us that this matter will be kept under review to see whether what I understand is a rather restrictive interpretation of this matter might be addressed in future years if there was a problem, particularly in the rural sector.