Draft House of Lords Reform Bill

Baroness Taylor of Bolton Excerpts

Tuesday 1st May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Taylor of Bolton]

My Lords, it is very difficult to follow the noble Lord, because he has given us a comprehensive demolition of the proposals in the draft Bill. It has been rather strange over recent weeks to listen to him speak on the Scotland Bill. He and I agree on very few of the big political issues of the day—the economy, the health service and education—but when it comes to constitutional issues, we agree a great deal, because, although we are politicians, we are practical politicians who want workable solutions. That is not what we have been presented with.

I add to the congratulations offered to the noble Lord, Lord Richard. When I was shadowing the Leader of the House in another place—Lord Newton, who is much missed on these occasions—where we proposed pre-legislative scrutiny, we hoped, expected and perhaps assumed that Bills would be in a better state of readiness than the one that was presented to the Joint Committee. As others have said, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, had a big task, but his hands were tied behind his back because of the limited remit. Therefore, his committee could not address some of the basic problems. That is one of the reasons why I welcome the alternative report, which may become a definitive guide on this issue. The one thing that we all agree on is that we do not have a workable solution. Last week, when this debate was announced, one of my colleagues said, “Well, what is there new to say about this Bill?” My noble friend Lord Foster of Bishop Auckland said that the thing that would be new would be if somebody stood up and said, “I think that the draft Bill is perfect”. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has not spoken yet and he may break that duck, but I doubt it.

I share the concerns of many people; we all have different priorities. Mine are not theoretical but very practical, because I have never, even going back to university student days when we are all a bit wayward, favoured a second Chamber that would or could challenge the House of Commons. Indeed, I think that I would prefer a unicameral system to a confrontational system. The reasons for that are quite straightforward: first, the electorate should have the clearest possible choice at a general election to elect a Government who can get their programme through. For the same reason, I am against proportional representation, which will always lead to post-election deals that no one has voted for. Secondly, if we have a second Chamber with a strong electoral mandate—and some, though not me, would say that a PR mandate supersedes a first past the post mandate—it is inevitable that, in pretty short time, there would be a clash, gridlock and a constitutional crisis.

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, referred to the Scotland Bill. I had the privilege of being Leader of the House of Commons and then Chief Whip. We had then, as now, ping-pong. It was very inconvenient to business managers to have to send things back and forth, and sometimes we had to compromise, but we knew as Commons business managers that, at the end of the day, we would get our Bills. If I were to be an elected Member of the second Chamber, a Senator, then, as the noble Lord asked, why would we give way? Indeed, I can imagine squabbles: “My mandate is bigger than your mandate. My mandate is stronger than your mandate. I was elected on PR”. Why on earth would we give way in those situations?

I must mention Clause 2, which has united many people because no one thinks that it is fit for purpose—indeed, the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, said that there was devastating criticism. It is obvious to me and, I suspect, to many other people that the Government will rewrite Clause 2. But I hope that no one will fall for a bland rewriting of that clause with promises of future codification of conventions because some people are making that sound simple and it is not. As the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has said on more than one occasion, relationships will evolve and change. The only way in which that will happen is with a second Chamber becoming more assertive.

I heard one analysis that I think sums up the current situation. In many ways, we have a unicameral legislature with an advisory second Chamber, and that works. As the Clerk of the House of Commons said in his evidence to the Joint Committee, at present we have two Chambers that are complementary. If this Bill goes through we will have two Chambers in confrontation. That point above all others is one that Members of another place should bear in mind.

I also want to say a word, as indeed did the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, about mixed membership—some elected, some appointed. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, has referred to this on many occasions. If the will of the unelected Senators outvotes the will of the elected Senators, how does that enhance democracy?

While we are on that word “democracy”, it is a single cry of those Ministers who are proposing these changes. But democracy is about more than just the vote: it is about accountability. What accountability is there for a Senator who is elected for 15 years and cannot seek re-election? What sanction does the electorate have? It is utter nonsense. If those seeking election as Senators are to do so on a party list, influenced by the party establishment, what is the real difference between those of us who are put here by our party leaders and those who are put on a 15-year list? We might as well put a 15-year limit on our time in this House. There will be no less accountability there because a party machine will still choose and the electorate will not be any better off.

My other very serious concern about what is being proposed is the piecemeal nature of all the constitutional changes that have been proposed and are floating around at the moment. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, mentioned the Scotland Bill. He did not mention the Scottish referendum, which will have a significant impact on our constitutional arrangements. Who knows what that will be? It will be upon us very soon.

Surely we must have some coherence in all the changes that have been proposed. We have to bear it in mind that while, thankfully, we do not have AV, because that referendum came out the right way, we do have a change to a fixed-term Parliament. We have a new system where there will be boundary changes for constituencies every five years. We are moving towards individual voter registration, not to mention elected mayors and police commissioners and we will see what the turnout will be for that. I wonder whether all this turmoil is really the way to re-engage the public with politicians. At a time when they are worried about jobs, the health service, housing and so forth, I believe that it is dangerous to alienate the public, especially when we see the far right doing so well in parts of Europe.

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, referred to the Conservative manifesto and the coalition agreement, and I do not want to intrude on private grief there. But will the Minister who is replying follow up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, about the definition of consensus—the idea that consensus is a majority in the House of Commons? I wish when I was Chief Whip and Leader of the House that I had thought of that. We need a denial that that is where we are.

Few people in this debate have said that there should be no change to the workings of this second Chamber. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, said yesterday that he had received an indication from the Government that they will give a fair wind to his Bill in the next Session and that is welcome. But we need to go further and incorporate the proposals suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, in her very positive and constructive evidence to the committee. Other interesting ideas have come up in this debate, perhaps especially the idea of a secondary mandate, which could lead to some consensus.

We really need some kind of road map of where constitutional change is going. If we do not have that, we will see all sorts of unintended consequences if we go down the path of the Clegg Bill. That is why I was glad to see the recommendation in the alternative report for a constitutional convention. It is also why I remind the House of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, yesterday, which we should all bear in mind. He said that we are talking about the British constitution, not the glue that holds the coalition together.