Legacy of Northern Ireland’s Past
Debate between Baroness Suttie and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Baroness Suttie (LD) [V]
My Lords, I echo the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, about not hearing the original Statement; it does make for a slightly peculiar debate, even remotely, as I am this evening. It is also regrettable that such an important issue is being discussed so late in the day.
It is now 18 months since renewed hope was given to the people of Northern Ireland through New Decade, New Approach in January last year. That was an approach agreed by the previous Conservative Government, the Irish Government and had broad support across the communities and parties of Northern Ireland. Last week’s Statement represents a dramatic and deeply unwelcome move away from the Stormont House agreement, with its approach of peace and reconciliation, towards a blanket amnesty that does not distinguish between those who broke the law and those who upheld it. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has said, almost uniquely, last week’s Statement in the House of Commons by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland succeeded in uniting all five of Northern Ireland’s parties against these proposals.
These proposals are insulting to the victims and their families, across all communities and backgrounds, who have already waited so long to see justice and to be able to have closure. It would be interesting to know whether the Government can give a single example of when such an approach has ever succeeded in promoting a move towards genuine reconciliation. It is hard not to conclude that these proposals owe more to pressures from within the Conservative Party and certain elements of the media than to a genuine desire to deal with the legacy of the past and seek lasting peace and reconciliation.
The approach now adopted by the Government has introduced equivalence between all veterans, the vast majority of whom served the community with honour and respect for the rule of law, and terrorists, who deliberately sought to cause death. Justice and equality before the law are essential elements of trust in the law, which is a vital element of a path to reconciliation and moving on from the legacy of the troubled past.
Given the strength of opposition to these proposals in Northern Ireland, can the Minister say whether it remains the Government’s intention to impose this approach over the heads of Northern Ireland political parties and victims’ groups? Does he not fear that these proposals risk being seen as having no legitimacy and no credibility? Can he clarify their impact on inquests and ongoing investigations and prosecutions? Can he say whether the Government’s proposals apply only to Troubles-related deaths or to any other crime committed by members of proscribed terrorist organisations between 1968 and 1998? If an investigation concludes that an individual’s death was caused by a member of a proscribed organisation or a member of the security services, will the option to pursue the individual responsible via a civil claim also be closed off?
As Sir Jeffrey Donaldson MP put it so powerfully in the House of Commons last week:
“I want to take the path to reconciliation, but I cannot believe that the path to reconciliation is made easier when we sacrifice justice. The victims have to be at the centre of this, and I would urge the Secretary of State, in taking forward his proposals, to listen to their voices. This must be a victim-centred process; it cannot be at their expense.”—[Official Report, Commons, 14/7/21; col. 396.]
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Suttie, for their comments and questions. I also particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for her sensitive words about the victims, because of course they remain very much in our minds.
I echo the thoughts of both noble Baronesses about the way the House has to be at the moment and my inability to read out the Statement. I have echoed similar words before—I think it was on the Ballymurphy Statement—when I agreed with the comments made that it is often better to have the Statement read out, because it provides a sensitive and suitable base from which to discuss challenging issues.
As the Secretary of State set out last week in the other place, while Northern Ireland today is undoubtedly a fantastic place to live in, work in and visit, the unresolved legacy of the Troubles remains and casts a long shadow. We bear in mind that Northern Ireland is celebrating its centenary year; noble Lords may see that I am wearing the badge. However, the legacy continues to impact and permeate society in Northern Ireland, both for those who were directly involved and affected and those who were not but live with the trauma of previous generations.
It is now a painful reality that the focus on criminal investigations is increasingly unlikely to deliver successful criminal justice outcomes. More than two-thirds of Troubles-related deaths occurred more than 40 years ago, and it is increasingly difficult for the courts to provide families with the answers that they seek. Time is not on our side. If we do not act now, we will condemn current and, importantly, future generations to ongoing division and prevent the reconciliation needed for Northern Ireland to move forward.
That is why—to give a little bit of background—the Secretary of State published the Command Paper, which sets out, very briefly, the three key measures: the new independent body that would focus on the recovery and provision of information; a package of measures that includes a major oral history initiative, consistent with what was included in the Stormont House agreement; and, as has been mentioned, a statute of limitations to apply equally to all Troubles-related instances.
I want to try and address some of the questions raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, stated that there had been no engagement and particularly that there was no collective support. Okay, I note what she says. However, I point out to her that there was 18 months of preparation for this Statement, and we have indulged in a lot of engagement, particularly in recent months, with a range of groups. Part of the point of this Statement is that these proposals are leading to an intense and short period of engagement with all groups within Northern Ireland, including victims’ groups, to see how we can find a way forward. That is the honesty and the clarity for which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, was looking. We should be open about that.
Operation Kenova has proved to be valuable in terms of drawing out information about the Troubles, which we are looking to build on by drawing out reconciliation and bringing out historical information that we hope will provide some comfort to victims, should they wish this. However, part of the reason we have brought forward these proposals is that Operation Kenova has led to no prosecutions, and that is a sad fact.
The noble Baroness raised the issue about Tom Oliver. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on a matter under criminal investigation, but the Government are clear that a continued focus on criminal justice outcomes will deliver neither justice nor information to the vast majority of families. That is why obtaining information, as I said earlier, which we know is so important to many victims and survivors, is the cornerstone of the proposals that the UK Government have put forward. We want to deliver tangible outcomes for as many families as we possibly can.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, made great play—and I understand why—about why we are bringing forward these proposals and cannot find an agreement. We are determined to drive progress and deliver legislation on this issue, but we are consulting first. This paper sets out our proposals and, as I said earlier, it will be an intensive and time-limited period of engagement. There are many different perspectives on this difficult issue, which we recognise, but we must all work together to find a way forward that works for Northern Ireland, which comes back to a point the noble Baroness made. These issues are sensitive; they will require courage and, importantly, they will include collaboration.
Northern Ireland: Jewish Community
Debate between Baroness Suttie and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
The Jewish community has played an integral role in shaping the journey and identity of this nation, particularly in Northern Ireland. Our society is richer for its diversity and the Jewish community is proud and shining testament to that. In answer to the noble Baroness’s question, as I said earlier, every effort is being made. UK and EU officials are engaging multiple times each week to discuss the issues around the implementation of the protocol. We also meet the EU regularly under the formal protocol joint and special committee structure, with the most recent meeting of the joint committee having taken place last month.
Baroness Suttie (LD) [V]
My Lords, does the Minister acknowledge that if the Government had carried out a full impact assessment on the Northern Ireland protocol before agreeing to it, many of these culturally sensitive issues would have been highlighted? To push further on the EU-UK veterinary agreement, does he not agree that this is yet another issue that could be resolved by signing up to such an agreement?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I do not agree with some of the points that the noble Baroness makes, because the protocol was really a compromise. It was always clear that it was a delicate balance designed, crucially, to support the Good Friday agreement and to maintain Northern Ireland’s place in the UK while protecting the EU single market. The question, of course, is how it is applied. I point out to her that under the detail of the protocol, it is not simply about putting a goods and customs border in place between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. For example, Article 6(2) says that the UK and EU
“shall use their best endeavours to facilitate the trade between Northern Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom … with a view to avoiding controls at the ports and airports of Northern Ireland to the extent possible”,
so we need to look at that.
Northern Ireland: Citizens’ Rights
Debate between Baroness Suttie and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I can only reiterate that we are urgently looking at addressing the issues on the ground. As the noble Lord will know only too well, much work is being done by my noble friend Lord Frost and Mr Sefcovic to address the outstanding issues to ensure that rights are equal between the citizens of Northern Ireland and those in the rest of the United Kingdom.
Baroness Suttie (LD) [V]
My Lords, the Belfast/Good Friday agreement enshrined many rights for the people of Northern Ireland but, following Brexit, there are fears that some of those rights are being diminished. Does the Minister agree that the British-Irish Council would be a useful forum to discuss these concerns? Can he confirm when he expects the next meeting of the council to take place?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I cannot confirm the actual date. I was drawn in on the BIIGC the other day and I understand the sentiments expressed by the noble Baroness, but I cannot give any further information. She will know that that we are aware of its potential operation.
Northern Ireland: Violence
Debate between Baroness Suttie and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Baroness Suttie (LD) [V]
My Lords, I also strongly condemn the recent criminal violence. Sadly, 23 years on from the signing of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, segregation, division and poverty are still far too much a part of society in Northern Ireland. Does the Minister regard it as acceptable that only 7% of young people in Northern Ireland are in integrated education? Will he undertake to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive as a matter of urgency to promote measures to overcome these divisions in the education sector?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
The noble Baroness makes a very important and specific point about education. It is appalling that there are reports of teenagers coming on to the streets when, in fact, they should be going back to school—schools have opened—and then back home. I applaud the achievements of the community leaders, who are working extremely hard in the various parts of Northern Ireland where there has been unrest to encourage these pupils to go home and to stop adults encouraging them.
Northern Ireland: Victims’ Payment Scheme
Debate between Baroness Suttie and Viscount Younger of Leckie(3 years, 11 months ago)
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Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Again, the noble Lord makes a good point. It is hugely frustrating that the formal designation of a department to lead on delivering the scheme took so long; in fact, as he will know, it took a court case to get that designation in 2020. However, we have that now and the Department of Justice is working very hard to put the systems in place to do what the noble Lord said: to get the payments to victims.
Baroness Suttie (LD) [V]
My Lords, the current very public stalemate is causing great distress and anxiety to many of the victims who hoped to benefit from this scheme. Does the Minister agree with what the Northern Ireland Justice Minister, Naomi Long, said yesterday:
“I will leave no stone unturned in terms of trying to get a resolution to this … We do not want to let the victims down at this late stage, given the good progress that has been made”?
Does he therefore acknowledge that engaging with the Northern Ireland Executive and holding the joint meeting requested by them would do much to help make progress?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I agree with the noble Baroness’s comments in terms of the comments made by Naomi Long, who, again, is working extremely hard to put systems in place, establish the necessary resources and hire the appropriate experienced people. This is what is required to get to the right point. We hope that the month of March will be the launch pad from which payments can be made to victims.
Patrick Finucane: Supreme Court Judgment
Debate between Baroness Suttie and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Baroness Suttie (LD) [V]
My Lords, I too would like to thank the Minister for repeating the Statement this evening, but share the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that it would perhaps have been better if he was able to do it in person. From these Benches, I also pay tribute to the Finucane family, and particularly to Geraldine—Patrick Finucane’s widow—who have all endured so much since his brutal murder in 1989. My heart truly goes out to them for what they must have had to endure over these past 31 years.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland’s announcement two days ago is as regrettable as it is concerning. As the Minister knows, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has said this evening, the UK Supreme Court has stated that none of the previous investigations into the murder of Patrick Finucane met the required human rights standards. He will equally know that the Law Society of Northern Ireland yesterday expressed its concern about the decision at this time not to establish a public inquiry into his murder.
The approach announced by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will not provide for witnesses and documents to be compelled, as would have been the case under a full public inquiry. Can the Minister say how he believes this decision is compatible with Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights and the necessary requirements for independence? This unfortunate decision is compounded by the sidelining of the Stormont House agreement that would do so much to provide a more holistic approach for all victims of the Troubles.
We are also facing continued delay to implementing the commitments to legacy, as set out in the New Decade, New Approach agreement. Can the Minister tell the House when he believes we will see an announcement on taking forward those proposals on legacy? Apologies, although welcome, are not enough. A public inquiry would do much to help both the Finucane family and the wider community get to the truth and find some closure. It is therefore some consolation that a future public inquiry has not been entirely ruled out. Patrick Finucane’s case raises serious questions about the rule of law, actions of the state and accountability. The Government’s decision raises serious public interest issues. I hope they will reflect on this and reconsider their decision.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, I echo the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith: I am very sorry to hear today that the former Justice of the Supreme Court, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Kerr, sadly died earlier this week. I thank him for his service, and I give my condolences to his family.
I also agree with the noble Baroness that it would have been better if the procedures of the House allowed me to repeat the Statement, particularly on a subject that is so serious and important. It is often better that that is the case and I think this is one of those cases, so I completely agree with her points there.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, the Leader of the Opposition, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, for their statements. I state unequivocally that the murder of Patrick Finucane was an appalling crime, as the noble Baroness said. It caused tremendous suffering to all his family and to his wife Geraldine, as with so many other events that occurred during the Troubles and for so many other families from all communities across Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom and Ireland.
The Government are clear that the shocking levels of collusion made clear by previous investigations are totally unacceptable. The former Prime Minister, David Cameron, apologised publicly for that in 2012, as the noble Baroness said. This afternoon I echo the words of the Secretary of State in the other place on Monday by reiterating that apology today. I am very aware of the service and experience that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has had in Northern Ireland, and I listened carefully to what she said. She is right: at the end of the day, whether it is the dreadful murder of Patrick Finucane or any other murder, it is essential to get to the bottom of what actually happened.
I want to take a step back by saying that, over the years, as the noble Baroness said, the murder of Patrick Finucane has been the subject of a considerable number of investigations and reviews, including the three Stevens investigations and the de Silva review. As is well known, those investigations led to the conviction of Ken Barrett, a loyalist terrorist who pleaded guilty to the murder.
Then, jumping well ahead, in February 2019 the Supreme Court made a declaration that the state had not discharged its obligation to conduct an Article 2- compliant investigation into the death of Mr Finucane. That judgment specifically set out that:
“It is for the state to decide … what form of investigation, if indeed any is now feasible, is required in order to meet that requirement”,
but it did not specifically order a public inquiry.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said, following the 2015 police review of the de Silva report, a number of issues arose; they were referred to the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and remain subject to investigation. On 2 November 2020, the Northern Ireland Office was informed by the Police Service of Northern Ireland that Pat Finucane’s case was shortly to undergo a process of review, expected to begin early in the new year. I want to clarify that both those processes are independent of government.
I hope I can give some reassurance to both noble Baronesses that, having considered all the options open to him to meet the state’s obligations under Article 2, the Secretary of State has concluded that at this time it is right to let the upcoming PSNI review process and the ongoing police ombudsman investigations move forward before making a further assessment of whether any further steps should be taken. The Government are clear that we are not taking the possibility of a public inquiry off the table at this time, as the noble Baroness said, but we wish to see the processes conclude.
To answer a question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, concerning the breach of Article 2, the Government have acknowledged the Supreme Court finding that there is yet to be an Article 2-compliant investigation into the death of Mr Finucane, and we acknowledge that there has been some delay in setting out the way forward. However, I say again that we believe the two-pronged approach of allowing those two investigations to progress is the right way forward at this time.
Covid-19: Northern Ireland Economy
Debate between Baroness Suttie and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I visited the site of “Game of Thrones” a few months ago—it was very interesting. Obviously, this is a devolved area, and the Government have provided the Northern Ireland Executive with additional finance of £2.8 billion for 2021-22 to address the challenges. The Northern Ireland Executive’s Artists Emergency Programme has provided awards of up to £5,000 to support those in the arts sector, creating work and making a vital contribution to the well-being of communities.
Baroness Suttie (LD) [V]
My Lords, key to protecting the economy and safeguarding jobs in Northern Ireland during the Covid crisis is childcare provision. A recent survey by Employers For Childcare showed that three-quarters of Northern Ireland parents had no access to childcare during some or all of the pandemic. This is particularly true for the least well off and those working reduced hours. Can the Minister say what additional support the Government will provide, including financial support through tax credits, for the childcare sector?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
The extra £2.8 billion has been directed towards Northern Ireland to help it with such matters, but I should say that each devolved nation has its own unique circumstances, so these are matters for the Executive to take forward. However, that support from the United Kingdom should provide enormous help, at least.
United Kingdom Government-Northern Ireland Executive Joint Board
Debate between Baroness Suttie and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Baroness Suttie (LD) [V]
Does the Minister agree with the House of Commons Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee report on the New Decade, New Approach agreement where it highlights the need for a long-term financial plan for the implementation of the agreement but acknowledges [Inaudible] on public finances in Northern Ireland? Will he confirm that long-term financial planning will be on the agenda of the next meeting of the board?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I think I picked up most of what the noble Baroness said. I know that some information has come out from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. One recommendation was for an annual report, and that is linked in with the question that the noble Baroness asked about sustainability in the future. It is not an unreasonable request but we would need the agreement of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to take that forward.
Northern Ireland: Victims Payment Scheme
Debate between Baroness Suttie and Viscount Younger of Leckie(4 years, 3 months ago)
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Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My noble friend is right; they have been waiting for far too long. I reiterate—again—that the funding is there, and it always was there. The delay was entirely up to the parties that had failed, up until recently, to agree the way forward. Now we are making some progress with the designation of the department. Funding is there, and that has never been—and is not now—a block.
Baroness Suttie (LD)
My Lords, I add my voice from these Benches to the issue of long-term funding. As other noble Lords have said, victims have waited far too long for this scheme to come into being, and the non-designation of a department caused unnecessary delay to victims. I press the Minister one more time: will he commit to securing the long-term funding that is so desperately needed to move forward?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I think this must be the third or fourth question on this matter; I believe I have answered that. The funding is there, and there are other ways in which this goes forward, but the funding is not a block.