Ukraine

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Wednesday 28th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, marking the second anniversary of Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine gives us another chance to reaffirm our support for Ukraine and its people—people who, in the defence not only of their freedom but of our freedom and our democracy, have suffered so much. So many have been killed and wounded. Cities, towns and villages have been ruined or destroyed.

Yet, in the face of that, Ukraine has stood tall, firm and resolute. Once again, all of us salute Ukraine’s courage and bravery. As a country, we are united in our support and our determination to see this through with them. We have seen this in military support, but also in Ukrainians welcomed into our homes, donations of assistance to Ukraine and continuing rallies on many of our streets, marking that sense of solidarity.

Can the noble Earl tell us whether the Government’s recent welcome announcement of further support for Ukraine will ensure that the ammunition shortfalls that the Ukrainian armed forces face will be speedily replenished? Do we have the stocks to do this quickly, and can we do all we can to ensure that such shortages are not experienced again? In part, this needs a boost to Britain’s industrial production. The Government have announced plans to enable this uplift in capacity to take place with respect to armaments. What progress has been made with respect to this, and what timeline do the Government expect in order for that increased capacity to be available to meet the ever-increasing need?

The chief of the Armed Forces said this week that addressing this shortage of ammunition could take months until the West agrees further steps to support Kyiv. What are these further steps, and what progress has been made to achieve them? Ukraine has had to withdraw at times, not because of a lack of desire to fight but because of a lack of ammunition. This cannot be allowed to happen again. I know the Government will agree with that, but we simply cannot read again in our papers that military withdrawal has had to take place because of the lack of necessary ammunition, let alone equipment.

Alongside raising the amount of ammunition supplied and the speed of supply, we need to maintain the diplomatic effort to maintain our unity. Can the noble Earl comment on President Macron’s calls for troops in Ukraine, which appeared to come from absolutely nowhere?

One of Putin’s mistaken beliefs was that the West would be weak in the face of his aggression. Is it therefore not significant to note again that the opposite has happened, with the very welcome strengthening of NATO? Finland is now a member and the last obstacles have been cleared for Sweden. Can the noble Earl outline the Government’s view of what Ukraine’s path to NATO membership is? Do the Government have a view on how they expect this to happen?

The Government have made many announcements, including the recent one about 200 Brimstone missiles. Can we expect a full military aid action plan? Is there to be an implementation plan for the welcome UK-Ukraine security arrangement and agreement?

Alongside equipment, the training of personnel is also crucial. We have trained up to 60,000 individuals so far, which is a great feat on our part. Can the Minister update us on the latest news regarding Operation Interflex, which is our main training effort?

The morale of the Ukrainian people has been immense, and we must do all we can alongside our military support to maintain that morale. What thought have the Government given to this aspect of the war? In other words, what thought have they given to maintaining civilian morale in the face of the aggression and hardships that we all understand?

The shocking death of Alexei Navalny shows the sort of regime that we are dealing with. Success for Ukraine is our success, and it is crucial to the future of freedom and democracy in Europe. The resolve of the Ukrainian people is immense, and they should know the strength of our resolve and that of our friends to stand with them. It is a task we will not shirk, and they should hear that message again.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches, I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. We stand here today supporting our Ukrainian friends. Across the Chamber and across the country, we give our support to Ukraine. It is unwavering, and it needs to remain so, because Ukraine’s war is our war. If we flinch, that only gives succour to Vladimir Putin, so it is absolutely right that we all stand up and say that we support His Majesty’s Government in the aid that they have been giving to Ukraine. The aim of this evening is perhaps to ask a few questions about what further support can be given; our own defence capabilities, to ensure that we have the ammunition we are seeking to give and are backfilling appropriately; the defence industrial base, perhaps; and what assessment His Majesty’s Government have made of the ammunition support that Russia is getting from North Korea and Iran.

First, it is very clear that there is a concern about a lack of ammunition. President Zelensky has said that we must be very careful not to have an artificial deficit in ammunition. Can the Minister tell the House what preparations His Majesty’s Government are making to ensure that we can supply or help supply Ukraine not just this week and next week but for the months and years to come? What discussions are His Majesty’s Government having with other Governments in Europe and in NATO about their support? There have been problems about the pledges of ammunition being delivered from other European countries. We are all in a similar situation, and we are all trying to procure weapons from the same industrial base, even if we have our own defence industries. What co-operation do we have, and what discussions are we having? Are we ensuring that, collectively, we can provide Ukraine with what is needed?

I think there is a real issue. The Secretary of State, making the Statement in the other place last week, talked about the new UK drone strategy. Obviously, drone warfare is one of the issues that has come to the fore in recent years. In Ukraine, but also in the Middle East, particularly the Red Sea, we have seen drones that appear to come from Iran. Could we hear what assessment His Majesty’s Government have made about the potential of Iranian drone warfare? Do we have any sense of the numbers?

Beyond that—I realise that sanctions probably fall in the remit of the FCDO; certainly, Minister Mitchell talked about sanctions in his Statement today—one of the issues about sanctions is that they ought to be stopping Russia being able to export oil and gas in the way that it has been doing. Are His Majesty’s Government satisfied that the existing sanctions are working sufficiently well? In particular, if the rumours are true that among the other countries buying oil now is India, which is one of our Commonwealth partners, what discussions are His Majesty’s Government having to try to persuade India and other Commonwealth partners that have not necessarily bought into the same level of commitment to Ukraine as we have? What are His Majesty’s Government doing to try to persuade them to support the sanctions?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, let me start by restating that the UK’s commitment to Ukraine remains absolute, unequivocal and unwavering. Putin’s appalling, illegal and unprovoked attack on the Ukrainian people must be repeatedly condemned by all sides. The Government are extremely grateful for the exceptional level of support across all Benches throughout the last two years.

The UK has been and remains at the very forefront of international efforts to end Russia’s war. With that support, Ukraine has retaken over half the land occupied by Russia, pushed the Black Sea fleet eastwards out of Crimea and opened up grain export routes that do not depend on Russia. Ukraine has made significant progress—not consistently, but with enormous effort and huge fortitude—in repelling an extremely focused and aggressive invader. As we know, it is the second anniversary and, as those in the know have said for a long time, this will be a long war. A lot of the questions that have been asked are about the ability of the West to support and maintain the pressure and ability of the Ukrainian people to mount a continuous defence of their country.

I will take some of the questions that have been raised. On the question of replenishment and available stocks, the Government, not only here but also in Europe and NATO, are moving at speed to attempt to invest in industrial strategy that will up the rate of production. In this country, we have done a number of deals, both through the International Fund for Ukraine and also with some of our armament suppliers, to increase that rate. One of the most commonly mentioned ones is the 155mm artillery ammunition, where the actual rate has been increased by a factor of eight.

That is not to say for one minute that we are able to supply—and I do not think one would expect a country of our size to be able to supply—the full necessity, but in working with our partners, both in NATO and the EU, there is no doubt that the rate of supply will increase again, hopefully to the level of fire rate, which will allow the Ukrainians to hold their ground and ultimately push back. It is not an instant solution and, as I am sure noble Lords will be aware, there are some details that I am not at liberty to discuss, but we are doing everything we can to improve our own stocks and availability and restrict the Russian Federation from obtaining materials.

Some of the further steps we are taking, particularly when getting other countries involved and stepping up to the mark, are, as you would expect, through diplomatic channels. That is extremely important, because when it comes down to it, winning on the battlefield is one thing, but it is diplomacy that really wins the day in the end. That is consistent with all the different issues we are facing now: we restrict the weapons, we concentrate on diplomacy, we restrict the flow of money and we continue to supply all that we possibly can.

On drones, the noble Baroness is absolutely right. The whole concept of warfare has changed significantly. As part of the £2.5 billion that we are gifting to Ukraine in 2024-25, £200 million is going to go to drone technology and will produce an enormous quantity of drones. The challenge with Iranian drones is that, although of course we will do whatever we can to restrict some of the key components, there are malign forces that are only too happy to supply those key parts which are so hard to get hold of.

On sanctions, we have introduced a sanction level that has never been produced before against a sovereign state. With our international partners, it is a major level of sanctions. Some 1,900 individuals and entities have been sanctioned, 1,700 of those since the start of the invasion. They include 29 banks, which is 90% of the Russian sector, and 131 oligarchs, which is £147 billion. The fall in Russian trade to the UK is now 99.7%. The sanctions are working, and we know that Putin is having trouble coping with them—in fact, he admits to it. How those seized assets should be applied, either for rebuilding Ukraine or for humanitarian aid, is an issue which is under constant discussion.

The question on NATO is an extremely good one. The primacy of NATO in this whole enterprise is paramount. The accession of Finland and the final acceptance of Sweden—I understand there is going to be a signing next week, which is great news—shows the Russian Federation the determination that NATO has. I cannot imagine what President Macron thinks he is doing suggesting that NATO troops become involved; I rather hope it is a question of translation at some point, because it is just extraordinary.

We continue to train a very high number of personnel —in fact, we trained an additional 10,000 in the past few months. One challenge that we have with training, and we have about a dozen allies who help us with it, is that we are not certain how many people are still coming out of Ukraine wishing to be trained. I am sure that noble Lords will know that the Ukrainian Government are looking at the conscription age to try to boost the numbers going into their forces. However, despite some of the setbacks, morale remains remarkably high. More than 80% of Ukrainians are determined to regain all territory. President Zelensky still has an extraordinarily high approval rating. Even the change of commanders, which is fairly normal in war, because after a couple of years people get tired and there needs to be some new thinking, has been well accepted.

The death of Navalny is a clear indication of the sort of people we are dealing with. They will stop at absolutely nothing. It is just another example of the complete lack of any form of moral compass that is being faced.

My final point is that the approach we are taking with some of our allies and some of the Commonwealth about buying oil and gas from Russia is one of diplomacy. The challenge is that, as I understand it, they know they are not necessarily doing the right thing but the Russians are charging a price that they almost cannot resist. That is a real diplomatic challenge and it is something that we need to concentrate on with enormous application and force.

Before taking Back-Bench questions, I will just say that I concur entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, that, as the second anniversary of Russia’s invasion passes, we must all recognise that Putin simply must not be allowed to prevail, at whatever cost it takes.

Iran: Military Power

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 20th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, surely the point is that the United States is a democracy. Iran is not.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, in answering the initial Question of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, the Minister rightly pointed out that we have sanctions against Iran. But does he believe those sanctions are working, given that the chief commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard pointed out last week that Iran now has unparalleled naval capabilities and the ability to deal with military things from afar?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, this is an extremely good point. We can go only so far with sanctions, due to all the reasons that your Lordships are fully aware of and the fact that Iran has its allies, which are not remotely interested in stopping—and in fact are encouraging—its proliferation. We sanctioned the IRGC in its entirety. We have sanctioned more than 400 Iranian individuals and organisations to do with weapons proliferation, regional conflicts, human rights violations, and terrorism. Since October 2022, we have sanctioned a further 56 IRGC-related organisations and officials. So we are taking as much action as we can.

Royal Navy: Drone Attacks in the Red Sea

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Monday 5th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank the noble and gallant Lord for his question; that is a very good point. When firing an expensive missile at a cheap drone, you are not protecting the missile; you are protecting half a billion pounds-worth of equipment behind you—that is certainly worth it. As your Lordships know, we have invested a large amount of money in drone and missile technologies, and we will incorporate that in all future designs.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister said that he does not want to comment on the Statement that is about to arrive, so I will take him in a slightly different direction. To what extent have His Majesty’s Government assessed the requirements for the Navy in the light of the drone strike on 16 December? Given the very worrying concerns raised by the report of the Defence Committee in the other place, Ready for War?, which points out the difficulties with the Type 26 delays and the power improvement project for the Type 45s, we were very fortunate that HMS “Diamond” is in the region and seaworthy. What assessment are His Majesty’s Government carrying out about making urgent reforms to the Navy to ensure that we are as protected as we need to be?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the First Sea Lord and his team are fully aware of the situation and are keeping as many ships at sea as we can at any one time. There is obviously a maintenance programme that must be adhered to and upgrading programmes that follow the latest technology. All the learnings from this latest situation in the Red Sea are being built in as rapidly as possible to all future plans.

Afghan Relocations: Special Forces

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Monday 5th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, your Lordships will remember from when we went through this issue the last time that it is not easy. I do not accept that we have made a nonsense of it. What we are trying to do is get it right. Some inconsistencies came up during the process that needed addressing, which is what we are trying to do. The information was held by the Afghan national Government. It was not held by us. Your Lordships will remember that we had 142,000 applications, of which 95,000 were original. We needed to get to the truth of it. As a result, we are looking again at all the refusals, which is the right thing to do.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, these Benches welcome the Government’s change of heart and their agreement to look again at the applications of the Triples. There has been a real problem with ARAP and ACRS. People have not been able to make appeals.

Can the Minister reassure the House that His Majesty’s Government understand the urgency of dealing with these appeals immediately? While 12 weeks is absolutely the longest that it should take, ideally it should be much sooner. Can he tell us what Minister Heappey in the other place meant by saying that a new safe route is by the ACRS? The SNP had asked how we could have new safe routes. The fact that you have been granted ARAP does not mean that you can get out of hiding in Afghanistan to the United Kingdom. What will the Government do to enable people to get here safely?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I assure all noble Lords that we are in very close contact with the highest level of the Government in Pakistan. They are being extremely co-operative on the situation. Regarding the 12-week timeframe, we would like to get this sorted out as soon as possible. It has gone on for a very long period, but please keep in context the 142,000 applications. It has not been easy, and it is important that we get the safe routes correct so that people can get out of Afghanistan. Once they are in Pakistan and get the letter, we can get them out. We got another 2,900 people out fairly recently. It is a challenge, but we are getting there.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I recall a very similar question the last time we raised this, and I think I said at the time that there is flexibility and that it is important that we get it right. That is the indication that I will give.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, if nobody else wants to come in, perhaps I may press the noble Earl further to answer my original question and those of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti. If somebody is entitled to ARAP, and if they make it to the United Kingdom by some circuitous route that would otherwise be deemed illegal, does that mean that they will be eligible to remain even though, in every other circumstance, they would be deemed to have come through an illegal route and potentially be sent to Rwanda?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, that is something I am not 100% clear on. I will not say one way or the other, but I will find out and write.

Red Sea Update

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Monday 5th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Minto, for repeating the Government’s Statement. I very much welcome its tone and content. I say at the outset that we back the US-UK air strikes, which are supported by other countries, as the noble Earl read out. We also praise all the members of our Armed Forces involved in these actions and actions that have gone before. We should all pay tribute to their bravery.

We know that, as the Government said, these actions are to protect shipping and freedom of navigation in the Red Sea. In essence, we are standing up for the international rules-based order. This is of extreme importance, as the noble Earl mentioned, as the Houthis are attacking the ships of many nations, threatening maritime security and international trade. They are putting lives in danger. They cannot just act with no consequence. We cannot just stand by and let these things happen. Let us be clear: taking no action also has consequences.

We fully back the leading role that the Royal Navy has played, with the US and others, in the continuing defence of shipping for all nations in the Red Sea, but as the Minister said in the Statement in the other place, despite having had

“a significant effect in degrading Houthi capabilities”,

their intent

“has not been fully diminished”.

Can the noble Earl tell us what assessment the Government have made of the effectiveness of the action that has been taken so far? At what stage do these one-off strikes become a sustained campaign, with the need to involve Parliament? It is good to see a coalition of countries supporting the action, but perhaps the noble Earl can outline the efforts the Government are making to persuade other countries to join Operation Prosperity Guardian.

Actions in the Red Sea raise many legitimate questions. In particular, we know that Iran is the sponsor for many actors in the region, including the Houthis. What steps are the Government taking to prevent regional escalation, which we all wish to avoid, while maintaining dialogue with Iran about action that may be taken?

Questions also arise about our ability to sustain a military operation, even in the support role we have. Can the noble Earl reassure us that we can and will be able to provide all the necessary equipment and military assets? For example, are the Government rethinking the need for our ships to carry missiles that allow them to attack land bases, such as drone bases in Yemen?

We also read of the fact that the aircraft carrier “Queen Elizabeth” now needs repairs to a propeller. Can the noble Earl update us on this? Has it impacted on Red Sea deployment decisions, given that we were all led to believe that the “Queen Elizabeth” was being considered for deployment to the Red Sea? How long before the “Prince of Wales” can be readied to take on her role in the NATO exercise? Could it also be the case that she will be sent to the Red Sea?

It is also important that we recognise, as the noble Earl did, the important role played by the RAF and the importance of the base at Akrotiri. Can the Minister outline whether we are due to rotate HMS “Diamond” with another naval ship? Can we be certain that any of our ships can be fully supplied at all times?

These questions arise on the day that a Defence Select Committee report said that

“parliamentary scrutiny of and debate about UK armed forces readiness currently relies on media reporting and corridor conversations”.

That simply has to change, hence my questions. Operational ability to do all we would wish to do, even with our allies in the Red Sea, becomes important.

Ministers have said that they need to deter Houthi attacks and degrade their capabilities. As I asked earlier, what assessment has been made of that? This also has to be done alongside diplomatic efforts, so can the noble Earl update us on these efforts to put pressure on the Houthis, particularly via Iran, and other diplomatic measures that have been taken?

Finally, we agree with the Defence Secretary in rejecting Houthi claims that this is somehow linked to the conflict in Gaza. They have been attacking ships in the Red Sea for at least five years. This is about the international rules-based order, and we will act with the Government to defend that principle.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, from these Benches I also thank the noble Earl for repeating the Statement. Like the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, I support the actions that have been taken so far. In particular, I thank the Government for being so clear about the precision with which the actions have been taken. It is hugely important that if we state that we are taking action against the Houthis to support the international rules-based order, we are very clear that our actions are proportionate and in line with international law. That is very welcome. Like the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, from these Benches I thank His Majesty’s Armed Forces for their deep commitment and the fact that they have been able to act and react so effectively.

I will start with Akrotiri and the RAF, because over the years Akrotiri has been hugely important, and we have made significant demands on the RAF. My starting point for questions on His Majesty’s Government’s capabilities is whether the noble Earl thinks we have sufficient support in Akrotiri. Is the Air Force able to keep up the level of support we have, or do we need to think about additional support for the RAF? Clearly, what has been happening so far has been significant and is working well, but can we sustain that—and for how long?

I have a similar set of questions about the Royal Navy. We rehearsed some of those at Questions this afternoon, and discussed naval capabilities. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has already raised some questions, but I will ask a little bit about crewing. One option is obviously to rotate out HMS “Diamond”, but do we need to do that, or might we think about changing the crewing? Is that what His Majesty’s Government might be thinking about?

Can the noble Earl also tell the House how many of our ships are currently at sea, how many are in planned maintenance and how many need to have, for example, propellers mended, which is not part of planned maintenance? Can he elaborate a little further on some of the answers he gave this afternoon about our naval capabilities? The Defence Select Committee’s report from the other place really is quite damning about our capabilities.

From these Benches and the Labour Benches, we have raised questions over years with His Majesty’s Government about not just defence spending but how effective that expenditure is, and how effective our capabilities are. It is great that we have two aircraft carriers, but if they are troubled by defects, that raises concerns. The Type 45s were beset by design defects. The noble Earl’s predecessor, the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, was very keen to say that with the PIP, the Type 45s were a better ship than they had been before the refinements, but do we not need our ships to be right first time?

Are we confident that, moving forward, as we see ever more zones where His Majesty’s Armed Forces need to be present, we really have the capabilities, as an individual state and alongside our allies, to play the international role that we seek to play and to give our Armed Forces the support they deserve?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for providing that firm commitment to support the Government in their actions and to give at all times the full level of support that our forces value so highly.

This is not an easy situation; it is correct that what we are doing now is a continuation of these single actions—it is not a sustained thing. I can give a commitment that if that changes, it will be discussed much more widely. I understand the issues surrounding this but for force protection and operational security, the Government must have the ability to act on information received.

I shall go through the specific questions asked. The assessment of the action taken so far, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, said, is that it has been very accurate. It has been successful—it is not over. The noble Baroness referred to the accuracy of the targeting. That has been very effective, by all accounts, and we should continue along that route. It is important that we keep up the pressure but do not move to anything more sustained at this point.

We have been successful in getting more allies to join Prosperity Guardian. As I said this afternoon, for them to take action is something which each sovereign state needs to decide for itself. It is incumbent on that; I am sure that there is a lot of diplomatic action going on in the background, but we cannot take a decision for them.

Both the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister have been determined to make Iran fully understand that waging a war, in effect, through its proxies is something that the rest of the world finds illegal and cannot contemplate, and it needs to stop. There can be no doubt in my mind that Iran understands that; I hope that diplomatic pressure will continue and there will be a breakthrough at some point.

Both noble Lords asked about the sustainability of the action we are taking. I am absolutely sure from the RAF side at Akrotiri and the naval side in the Red Sea that this level of pressure is sustainable. There is the question of rotation; obviously, planned maintenance is a programmed activity and there is no gap in capability while they transition from one ship to another or swap planes over. That is very important.

We are part of an international force, and it is complementary in many areas. While we may not have on a particular ship all the weapons to provide a complete field, there are others that will do that.

The point was made about ship-to-shore missiles. The RAF from Cyprus is extremely capable of filling that in.

On the issue of the “Queen Elizabeth”, it is not uncommon to have maintenance issues; these are highly technical, state-of-the art ships, and it is extremely unfortunate at this particular moment. However, the fact that we have two aircraft carriers is very welcome. We will be able to deploy the “Prince of Wales” to exercise Steadfast Defender. We should be able to maintain our full strength, as per our NATO commitment, during Steadfast Defender. The situation with the “Queen Elizabeth” is being investigated now, and it is not absolutely clear how long the repairs will take to complete. I will certainly advise your Lordships when they are. There has been conversation about one of the aircraft carriers going into the Red Sea. This is part of an international action, and we discuss these contingency operations with our US colleagues at great length. There is flexibility in both directions, so no clear decision has been made yet.

I think I have answered the question of rotation and the aircraft carriers. However, the noble Baroness made a valid point about ships getting it right first time. The question of procurement is always uppermost in the mind in the Ministry of Defence. The only thing I would say is that, with the rate at which weapons systems develop, you need to refit and get the latest ones in place; often, that is part of planned maintenance and upgrading. I think I have answered all the questions.

LGBT Veterans Independent Review

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Government for this welcome Statement on the outstanding review of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, with respect to this matter.

Between 1967 and 2000, the treatment of those Armed Forces personnel deemed to be LGBT was a total disgrace. They were discharged or dismissed while others felt that they had to resign. Their friends and families felt the trauma of these individuals’ pain. It was 33 years before the ban was lifted, following a change in legislation in 2000. Here we are, nearly 24 years later, with the outstanding review of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton; although it cannot right the wrongs of the past, it means that we can do all we can to recognise these injustices fully, to put what we can right and to fight for a better future.

In doing so, I praise, as I have already, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, for his review, and the efforts and campaigning in this House of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, who I am pleased to see in his place, and my noble friend Lord Cashman. However, why is it that these injustices, inflicted by the state and often covered up, not just in this instance, take so long to put right? Had it not been for brave individuals whom I have mentioned, plus the Royal British Legion, Help for Heroes, Fighting With Pride, and many others, these injustices would have remained unresolved for many more years with respect to our Armed Forces.

The Government have said that there will be continuing debate and discussion on this issue, so can the Minister guarantee that this will also be the case for your Lordships’ House? Will he make sure that such debates cover not only the Etherton review but the current situation with respect to LGBT+ personnel in today’s Armed Forces?

At the heart of the review were the testimonies of those who were victims of an overt, brutal, homophobic policy. The review had 49 recommendations, and I believe this to be the case, but can the Minister confirm in this House whether the Government intend to implement all these recommendations in full? If that is not the case, which ones are not to be implemented?

The Prime Minister has himself apologised, which is very welcome. We also welcome the handing back of medals, an Armed Forces veterans badge, and a proper memorial at the National Arboretum. We also welcome the opening of the registration of interests. Can the Minister say more about how the MoD is to make sure that everyone and every family are to be made aware of what is happening and what they have to do to register? Is there any closing date for such registrations to be made in terms of restorative measures or compensation?

The Government will know that, specifically, the Royal British Legion and others are concerned that an arbitrary cap on the total amount offered in compensation is unfair. Can the Minister explain to us why such a cap was introduced and how it will be calculated? How can a cap be set now, before people have come forward with their claims? What if it is found that claims actually exceed any cap? Personally, I think—as I am sure others do—that the Government will have to revisit this. Will all of the restoration of rights, including pensions, include the accrual rates that were lost when people were forced to leave?

I have a final point on the cap. There is a provision for £50 million from the 2024 MoD budget. I believe that is the actual cap, and I am aware that there was discussion with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. However, I believe that at the very least this will need to be kept under review. Can the Minister outline how the £50 million is to be distributed—to which groups and how might they make these claims?

As I say, the report from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, sets out the need to do as much as we can to address the wrongs of the past. But it also has to be a further watershed moment for our Armed Forces now. We know that discrimination on the basis of sexuality still exists, as does sexism and misogyny, despite recent progress. We owe it to all those who came forward to honour their service, and that of their comrades and families. It shames us all; it saddens us all. But, at the very least, let it be an inspiration to us all, to build that better, more inclusive Armed Forces and society that we all want and deserve.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, when the report from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, was first published, we had the opportunity in your Lordships’ House to debate it at some length. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has already touched on some of the issues that were discussed then. For many of us who are not from a service background, the issues that went on in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces, as they were then, were absolutely shocking, just as they were for the people who served. It is noticeable that, in his Statement in the other place, Dr Andrew Murrison made the point that when he became a reservist, he was asked, “Are you gay?” As he said, even in 1980 that seemed out of place. And that was because it was out of place.

It is important that we look again at the report by the noble and learned Lord and remind ourselves of the injustices that were done, while at the same time paying tribute to the Government for taking on board almost all of the recommendations. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked, “Is it all of them?” My understanding is that one or two of them will be taken on in a slightly different way—but the acceptance of this report is hugely welcome.

There are some questions we might all need to understand in a little more detail. They are, in particular, how do those people who were affected by the ban know where to access the ways of getting restoration? In particular, if somebody was sacked, that is straight- forward, but if somebody felt the need to give up their commission early because they felt that their sexuality was putting them in extreme difficulties within the Armed Forces, what information will be available to them? How far will His Majesty’s Government be making clear to the wider service community and to veterans’ communities that people can come forward, and explaining how they can do so?

When we talked about the report when it was initially published, the issue was in part about next of kin and those who had service personnel who had died—perhaps who had committed suicide. Yesterday’s government Statement is very welcome in saying that it will be a little more open in terms of who counts as next of kin, recognising the very nature of relationships that might be important to those who are veterans, or who were veterans but are no longer alive. Again, how will those people be informed about ways of ensuring that their loved ones are able to have their service records reinstated? The commitment in itself is good, but we need to ensure that the reality works for both LGBT veterans and their next of kin, and also for those other people who were not actually LGBT service personnel but who, for some reason, were thought to be. This is another group of people who were victimised not because of their sexuality but because of their perceived sexuality—which, again, suggests that there is, or was, a real issue within the Armed Forces about inclusion and diversity.

Picking up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, about the fact that there are still issues around gender within His Majesty’s Armed Forces—are there other issues we should be picking up on and thinking about, to make sure that, going forward, whether it is about gender or sexuality, people are not victimised for who they are?

This report and the Government’s response are very welcome, but we need to ensure that the inclusivity is there for the service family of today as well.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, it is gratifying to see that everybody is on the same page in this. The treatment of LGBT serving personnel between 1967 and 2000 was wholly unacceptable, and I think everybody accepts that. But it does not reflect the situation today—far from it. Today, the MoD works hard to ensure that all our policies are inclusive in every respect. His Majesty’s Government, with the establishment of the report of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and the acceptance of all 49 recommendations, have made a clear statement of that position. In fact, 24 of the 49 recommendations have already been implemented, including all 14 restorative measures. That is an indication of how seriously the Ministry of Defence takes the wrongs of the past.

The Government, and I am sure all of us here, are extremely grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and his team for their thoroughness and commitment in completing such an important report and paving the way to right such an historic wrong to such a deserving section of our Armed Forces. The Government are also deeply indebted to those veterans who shared their testimonies and are committed to ensuring that such bravery is the catalyst for all future change. There is no doubt, in reading the more recent policies put out by Ministers here and in the devolved nations, that there is a clear intent to ensure that this is absolutely seen through and that zero tolerance is absolutely zero tolerance. When it comes down it, there can be no flexibility on this. It is absolutely zero tolerance.

On the question that the noble Lord raised specifically, it has taken a long time to get to this point. That bears testament to the complications in some of the issues that the information-gatherers have faced. As a start, there is not an accurate set of records about why people left the Armed Forces. That is one of the reasons, which we will come on to. I do not know if anybody has had an opportunity to take a look at it, but the “LGBT veterans: support and next steps” webpage is extremely thorough and informative. It attempts to seek out exactly what the issues were, who was treated badly and how badly—different grades of dreadful behaviour. We will do all that we can to ensure that people engage with that website to get the information that allows us to move forward and start talking about the financial arrangement.

The recommendation for the financial award scheme has been completely accepted. We are working at pace with experts across government to develop an appropriate scheme. There have been other schemes like this elsewhere in the world. The Canadian scheme is a good model. The £50 million cap that came out from the Etherton report is to some extent based on the experience that the Canadian Government had in approaching this. It would seem to be, at this stage, an appropriate sum of money. It is a meaningful sum of money. I am afraid that nobody knows how many people have been involved in and affected by this, but as a statement of intent it is a proper sum of money that should go to deal with the issue.

Although we are at the early stages, the Government are working at pace. The question about the number of claimants and the likely size of the award will be gone into only after the front door to the website is open and people can apply. There is no intention of closing the door. It will remain open. The expectation is that we should start to see some payments from the financial award scheme towards the end of next year. I know that it has taken a long time, but at least progress is being made.

Perhaps I should say at this point that this is not compensation and does not exclude people applying for compensation. This is an award scheme to recognise the wrongs of the past. If individuals or groups of individuals want to go for compensation through our legal system, it is entirely open to them to do that.

The other question that the noble Lord raised was about pensions. I have read some misinformation about accrued pension rights being negated. That is absolutely not the case. Accrued pension rights are protected under law, but I am afraid that the “lost” pension rights, once people had left the forces, cannot be dealt with because people may have gone to other businesses and accrued other pensions in other directions. It is not something that we can get involved in.

The noble Baroness raised the extremely important question of next of kin. Again, the hope and expectation is that this will come out in the amount of people who apply through “LGBT veterans: support and next steps”. This should be an emerging picture. Hopefully, individuals and organisations will apply fairly quickly.

I think that I have answered all the specific questions raised so far. If I have not, I am sure that noble Lords will let me know.

Global Combat Air Programme Treaty

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind your Lordships’ House of my entry in the register of interests, including my role as an honorary officer of the Royal Navy.

I had the privilege of leading the first debate in the other place on the need for a new fast-jet work stream for a post-Typhoon world. That debate, and the cross-party campaign, laid the foundation for the Tempest programme and, in turn, the announcement of this treaty and GCAP. So it should be no surprise that I am personally invested in the development of a sixth-generation British fighter jet. His Majesty’s Opposition welcome the development of the trination treaty and confirmation that the GCAP programme will be developed with Italy and Japan.

As with AUKUS, this alliance demonstrates our commitment to global long-term security in both Europe and the North Atlantic, as well as in the Indo-Pacific. It sends a clear message to those nation states that may wish us ill. With our allies, we can and will invest in our collective defence as a deterrent to hostile actors, because there is nothing more important than global stability and security.

There have been moments this year when the world has felt anything but stable. Therefore, in a more complex strategic environment, it is increasingly apparent that only by working with our closest allies will we be able to guarantee our global reach. However, given the scope of the project and the current challenges in the department’s procurement budget, as outlined by the National Audit Office only a fortnight ago, I have some questions for the Minister.

In June, the defence Command Paper reaffirmed that the UK would spend £2 billion on this project out to 2025. Given that the development phase will begin in 2025, can the Minister confirm what funding has been made available for GCAP in the defence budget for 2025 and 2026? The procurement budget currently has a £17 billion black hole. Can the Minister confirm that this vital additional investment in GCAP will not lead to further cuts of the F-35B procurement budget? The Minister will be aware that our carrier strike capability is at the heart of our defence planning, and we cannot afford to put it at risk by failing to procure enough airframes.

We are very lucky to have a vibrant and engaged defence industrial base in the UK. However, it is dependent on the development, manufacture and export of new technologies. As GCAP is to be headquartered here, can the Minister confirm what proportion of the workshare for GCAP will be based in the UK, so we can support British business and workers? Finally, can the Minister confirm within what scope the treaty allows us to work with other allies, both at secondary level and as primary partners?

As this is my last contribution of 2023, I take the opportunity to wish the noble Earl and all Members of your Lordships’ House—as well as our wonderful staff—a lovely break and a joyous, happy and electorally successful 2024.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, starting where the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, left off, I think the noble Earl, Lord Minto, and I have the dubious distinction of being the last two people standing this afternoon, because we have the next two items of business as well. I am not quite ready to wish everyone happy recess, happy Christmas, happy holidays or anything else, and I am afraid I am going to ask the noble Earl a few more questions. In many ways, they are in a similar vein to those of the noble Baroness, except that I cannot take credit for any activities in the other place, never having served there.

From these Benches we welcome this treaty and the commitment, which is very clear, to the Global Combat Air Programme. I would be interested to hear, in addition to the answers that the Minister will give to the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, a few more specifics about what this programme is going to mean in practice for the United Kingdom and for our wider relations with NATO and our other security partners. Clearly, one of the other partners in this trilateral arrangement is Italy. Japan is obviously an ally, and one with which we have strong bilateral relations, but how will this programme relate to our commitments within NATO? Is it enabling the United Kingdom and Italy to play a greater role, strengthening our positioning in NATO? The original Statement in the other place seemed to suggest that this is really about demonstrating our commitment not just to the Indo-Pacific but to the Euro-Atlantic area. I should like to hear a little more about the strategic thinking behind this.

Like the noble Baroness, I want to press the Minister a little more on the financial arrangements. We are in an unprecedented situation, with the present conflicts in Ukraine and in Israel and Gaza, and with further problems in the straits in the Red Sea—that is associated with the situation in Israel and Gaza but could potentially become even more difficult for our trading relations, and beyond that there are further ramifications for our naval commitments. What assessment have His Majesty’s Government made about this programme, alongside the carrier strike group and other commitments that we need to be thinking about?

I am sure the Minister’s briefing says something about the integrated review refresh saying X, Y and Z, but we need to move beyond that. The situation globally, and the commitments that His Majesty’s Government are rightly making, mean that many of the financial questions that might have been addressed a year or 18 months ago will not necessarily be adequate now. This is a programme looking forward, as the Statement says, not just for the next few years but for decades ahead, like AUKUS. Some sense of the long-term planning, relations with our wider allies and questions about interoperability are the key issues.

Furthermore, what work is being done with the defence industrial base to ensure that the contracts can be let, as far as possible, to companies that will give jobs in this country and to our partners in the European supply chain?

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I welcome the cross-House support, because this is a very important treaty and a meaningful allied programme. The launching of the Global Combat Air Programme in December 2022, along with Italy and Japan, our partners in this key initiative, was a significant moment in the future development of the new generation of military combat aircraft. In signing the GCAP treaty last week in Tokyo, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence proved that this programme is proceeding at pace, with a commensurate level of commitment that anticipates treaty ratification in early 2024, concept and assessment phase complete by 2025, and Tempest in service and operational by 2035.

This treaty is excellent news for the UK and our partners. It establishes the legal framework that allows contracts to be awarded, GIGO, and the joint business construct that is the government industrial delivery organisation. GIGO will be co-located here in the UK, alongside the joint business construct. Importantly, as a partnership of equals, the first CEO of GCAP will be from Japan and the first CEO of the joint business construct will be from Italy. On the noble Baroness’s point about the sharing out of the work programme, I think it is clear that the intention is that it should be joint, in so far as it is possible. Having said that, the choice of locating the GIGO and the joint business contract here in the UK is recognition of our ability within this area. Of course, international connectivity and all sorts of other things make the UK a sensible place to do this.

I will address some of the issues specifically. The noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, is right: so far, we have spent about £2 billion on this programme and industry has spent about £600 million. From the UK’s perspective, the expenditure is expected to be between £10 billion and £15 billion, running over the next 10 years. Remember, this is equal shares here.

The F35B is within the budget figures that we have been talking about, which noble Lords will recall were £228 billion over the next 10 years, of which only 25% is committed so far. There is still huge flexibility within the budget to ensure that the important priorities for this country are properly addressed at the appropriate time. It is too early to say exactly what percentage of the workforce will be in the UK, but the intention is that it should be equally shared between the three partners. We will have to see. It is a long time into the future, so who can tell?

On the question of whether other allies are to be involved, the base model programme, the platform, will be very flexible, so there is an absolute intention to involve other allies, whether they be NATO or not, and more customisation can be built into the programme as and when appropriate. The impact on NATO is an extremely good point. This is to do with the global situation that we face. As we all know, we are in an unstable place at the moment. There are issues popping up everywhere, Houthis attacking one of our warships and our warships downing a Houthi missile being the latest examples. These are uncomfortable times, and it is important that we address both the Far East and our responsibilities under NATO. There is no issue in this respect.

On the question of the financial arrangements and the cost of Ukraine, Israel and these latest commitments, Ukraine, as the House will know, is dealt with through a separate budget. Both the Prime Minister and the Defence Secretary have given an absolute commitment that we will carry on for as long as it takes. Our commitment is unwavering, and our support will be there. The situation in Israel and Gaza is a very moveable feast but we have given full support and are right there, ready to provide supportive aid whenever that is necessary. The movement of ships into the Red Sea and the Gulf is to act as a deterrent to any escalation in that area and to ensure that our forces are protected.

I think that I have answered the question on the global commitments. The last point outstanding was about the industrial base in the UK. There is a Team Tempest, which involves BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, Leonardo UK and MBDA UK, but there are over 1,000 companies across the three countries involved, including academia and SMEs. We have huge strength in this country on digital design and additive manufacturing, both of which reduce lead times and costs. We can hope and aspire to this being an extremely successful and very important programme as we progress it, for UK defence and industrial strength in this country.

Ukraine

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 19th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, makes a number of very good points. On the final point, we have committed, including humanitarian aid, in excess of £9.5 billion—close £10 billion. I note his point about supporting the Ukrainian people and I would say that the way that the citizens of this country have opened their doors has been exemplary.

On the question of equipment support and ammunition, we are continuing to get as close as we can, as are the rest of the allies, to what President Zelensky is after. To date, we have supplied over 300,000 artillery shells. It is increasingly becoming an artillery war, certainly during the winter months—in fact, it is becoming a sort of manufacturing war, about who can manufacture the weapons fastest. Of those 300,000 shells, some 50,000 have been produced since July 2023. We have supplied 31 armoured vehicles, 14 mine ploughs to go on the front of the T-62s, 6 million rounds of small arms ammunition and, of course, spares for the AS-90 artillery guns. We are absolutely committed to maintaining that level of support and ensuring that Ukraine has the weaponry that it needs to continue to fight against the Russian aggressors.

What is interesting about the Black Sea is that everybody is trying to ensure that it does not become a sort of Russian lake. Through some extremely clever and intelligent use of small amphibious weapons, Ukraine has been successful in pushing the Russians further eastwards. It is that level of support and training that this new coalition is particularly enthusiastic to support.

At the same time, from a trade perspective, the opening of the maritime corridor across the Black Sea has started to have a fairly significant effect on the ability of Ukraine to earn foreign currency through its exports, particularly of grain. While it maintained overland routes and used the Danube ports, it is the maritime corridor across the Black Sea which really provides the greatest opportunity. In recent months, I think there were about 200 ships in total that got out for trade, including 5 million tonnes of grain. We are getting there; it is incumbent upon us all. The maritime coalition opened only on Monday. We have already got 12 countries involved, with three more expressing interest. It is obviously going to become very productive.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I am aware that this is a UQ rather than a Statement, so I will not detain the House too long, to allow others to get in. This is obviously a welcome response to an Urgent Question. Maritime co-operation, particularly bilateral relations with our Norwegian colleagues, is hugely important, and that is very welcome. This morning, a Ukrainian general suggested that there was not sufficient military aid going into Ukraine. President Zelensky has just given a press conference and said that Ukraine is not losing. What are His Majesty’s Government—both the Secretary of State for Defence and the Foreign Secretary—doing to ensure that our partners in NATO, whether the United States or Hungary, are really going to give Ukraine the sort of support that the United Kingdom is still giving so clearly?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Baroness is quite right to raise this issue. We were the first to support Ukraine in its endeavour and we continue to encourage everybody to come along. The Ukraine Defense Contact Group is very important, and we continue to push for support wherever it is possible with all our allies.

Middle East: UK Military Deployments

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Wednesday 6th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Minto) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his welcome. His Majesty’s Government’s objectives in the short term are: first, to secure the release of the British hostages, which my right honourable friend in the other place said he

“will move heaven and earth”—[Official Report, Commons, 5/12/23; col. 211.]

to do; secondly, to show solidarity with Israel in defending itself against the terrorist organisation Hamas; and, thirdly, to call for humanitarian pauses exclusively to deliver emergency aid. Those are the three primary things.

The surveillance flights that have started are manned and unarmed. They are there specifically to assist in locating, identifying and removing hostages, particularly British ones. On the question of ensuring that the assets being deployed are protective, clearly, force protection is absolutely paramount in any form of military operation but, beyond that, we cannot go into any specific depth for clearly understood reasons.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I think I welcomed the Minister to his place when he opened the King’s Speech debate, but I welcome him again. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about the protection of our forces but my question is about the sustainability of deployment. It is absolutely right that we have sent a Royal Navy task force and that HMS “Diamond” is on its way—it is good to see that it is currently seaworthy —but what assessment have His Majesty’s Government made about the length of potential deployments, given that forces are already quite constrained? Do we have adequate resources and troop mobilisation, and have we thought about the question of morale?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very good point: morale is obviously paramount. Part of ensuring the morale of His Majesty’s forces is ensuring that there are sufficient forces not only to fulfil the task but to provide force protection. In this case, it is not as though any forces have been taken away from any other theatre; the noble Baroness is absolutely right that the ships that have been dispatched have come from another location. HMS “Lancaster” is already in the Gulf; HMS “Diamond” is on the way to join it; HMS “Duncan” is already operating as part of a NATO maritime task group in the Mediterranean; and the RFA “Lyme Bay” and RFA “Argus” are standing off, ready to assist wherever possible. Certainly, there are sufficient forces, and nothing has been withdrawn from anywhere else.

Ukraine

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 28th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the UK strongly condemns the appalling and illegal unprovoked attack that President Putin has launched on the people of Ukraine. We stand with Ukraine and continue to support its right to be a sovereign, independent and democratic nation. On the question of what our commitment is for the year to come, this is Ukraine’s plan for what it intends to do in 2024; it is not ours. Once Ukraine is ready to share that plan with the forces, we will of course be there in full support.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister should be able to answer, I hope, not on Ukraine’s plan but that of His Majesty’s Government. The Statement repeat suggested that support for next year is being finalised, talking about “within government” but also

“with our partners around the world”.

Can the Minister say whether that includes talking with industry? Unless we have access to adequate matériel and ammunition, we are not going to be able to deliver what is needed for Ukraine.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that the world will not have the relevant stockpiles unless the orders are placed with industry. There is an expectation of what the commitment will be and the rate of fire that is currently being managed—that is probably the best word—by the Ukrainian armed forces is its start point. Orders have been placed across the world with industry, and this country is not outwith that.