State Pension Regulations 2015

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, I will address my remarks, if I may, to Part 4 of the regulations—that is, Regulation 13. As I understand it, the regulations effectively replace what is called the home responsibility protection with a 10-year minimum qualifying period for a UK state pension. Prior to 2010, we had in the UK both the HRP and a 10-year minimum qualifying period. From 2010 until now, we had the HRP only. That is now being replaced by the 10-year minimum qualifying period, which was the position before 2010.

I refer to the Explanatory Memorandum and, in particular, paragraph 7.21, which, without the benefit of an impact assessment, is one of the major ways of discovering how many people will be affected by the shift that is announced in the regulations. This is what worries me more than anything else. In the Explanatory Memorandum, the Government look at the difference between a seven-year and a 10-year minimum qualifying period. The number of affected individuals in the United Kingdom who reach retirement age between 2016 and 2020 is approximately 3,000—the figure for the seven-year qualifying period is 6,000 to 10,000, while that for the 10-year period is 9,000 to 12,000, so the average difference between the two is 2,500 to 3,000 people. However, the following sentence says:

“In comparison, we estimate that 18 to 23 per cent (6,000 to 10,000 people) of the total number of individuals living overseas reaching state pension age in the same period will not qualify for a state pension because of the 10 year MQP”.

Then there is an estimate of that saving the Exchequer £650 million by 2040. This figure, I presume, relates mainly to those people living in other countries who have made a contribution to a UK state pension through their national insurance contributions, but who have not reached 10 years of qualifying and do not live either in the EEA or in a country that has a bilateral arrangement with the UK—for example, contributors to a UK pension who live in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa and other places. That is presumably why this figure is so high.

In that four-year period from 2016 to 2020, somewhere between 18% and 23% of all those pensioners who are expecting to receive a UK state pension are now not going to receive one. I would be grateful if my noble friend could provide—in writing if he does not, as I suspect, have the information to hand—a breakdown of who will be affected, where those people are affected and what the average rate of payment into a UK state pension has been in terms of minimum qualifying periods. If in fact there is a greater number between seven and 10 years, would that figure of 18% to 23% of people affected fall dramatically, if there were a seven-year qualifying period? It would be interesting to know what the rates of contribution had been for those people.

There is of course a second issue, relating to those who live within one of the countries that have a bilateral arrangement with the United Kingdom. I presume that those who live in an EEA country would in fact be entitled, because of contributions made through that European Economic Area member state, to a pension of some sort from the country where those contributions had been made. I want to ask my noble friend whether that is correct. Has an assessment been made of what that pension would be in each of the European Economic Area countries? More specifically, for those countries where there is a bilateral arrangement—my noble friend mentioned Israel and the United States of America—would the contributions which would enable people to get their pensions if they did not reach the 10-year minimum qualifying period, providing they had made sufficient contributions in those countries, for example, entitle them also to some form of pension ability in those countries, given that we have a mixed and bilateral system? I wonder whether my noble friend would agree with me that now is perhaps the time to reconsider the arrangements that we have with other member states in the European Economic Area and with other countries, particularly those of the Commonwealth, where we perhaps need to revisit whether we have a consistent, safe and sane system.

My noble friend also referred to the assistance that will be given to people to understand the new changes. It is not in the regulations, obviously, but paragraph 9 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to guidance. Could my noble friend tell me whether any guidance is given to those people in the country who are now seeking, part-way through their working life, to emigrate to Canada or Australia, for example, that their state pension rights will be affected by these regulations, and perhaps much more dramatically than they would have been in previous years? I understand that this is a very narrow area to consider, so I would be happy, if necessary, to have a detailed reply in writing, but I would like to see the breakdown of how this affects people who have been contributing to a UK pension in countries such as Canada, New Zealand, Australia and South Africa.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very helpful explanation of the regulations and the noble Lord, Lord German, for his contribution, too. Generally speaking, the regulations seem to broadly reflect the intention of the legislation, so I shall concentrate on only two or three points on which I would like some clarification, which mostly have already been raised by the Minister—although I confess that I was not planning on talking about prisoners, or his idea of people being “at large”. I completely agree that people should not be rewarded for this, but the Government’s argument for not giving them a pension is that the state is taking care of their bed and board—which, presumably, the state is not doing if they have absconded. However, I shall let him off on that point for now.

Regulation 10 sets the accrual rate for increments when someone defers claiming their state pension. The rate has now been set at 5.8% per year, which is slightly above what we were told in Committee. Have the Government had time to reflect further since the Bill became an Act about the reasons behind the decision to stop people being able to take a lump sum when they defer, instead of an enhanced ongoing pension? During the passage of the Bill through this House, my noble friend Lady Hollis of Heigham challenged the Government and said that doing this was removing the only opportunity for some future pensioners, particularly those of lesser means, to acquire a lump sum to use in retirement, which might be the last opportunity to fix some particular problem with the house or buy a car. She pushed the Government on that.

I understand—the Minister can correct me if I am wrong—that of the 1.2 million who defer their pensions, only 63,000 take the lump sum, which on average is worth about £14,000. Could the Minister remind us of the reasoning for this? I seem to recall at the time the Minister for Pensions Steve Webb said it was to “simplify the system”, but I do not think it is very hard to understand that you can have a lump sum or a higher weekly amount. So I do not find that reason hugely compelling. Furthermore, government policy on pensions has evolved a bit in recent times, and the idea that people who have been saving for their retirement should be allowed to take a lump sum rather than a weekly pension has become rather flavour of the month. For example, it is there in the Taxation of Pensions Act, whereby people who would have had to spend their retirement savings on an annuity in future may take it out and spend it on a Lamborghini—I believe that is the phrase—should they be so moved. Has the Minister had any second thoughts on that, in the light of changing government pension policy?

Secondly, Regulation 13 was raised by the noble Lord, Lord German. I shall not repeat all the questions that he asked, some of which I would have asked myself, but I will be very interested to hear the Minister’s answer. I am interested in the rationale—that the reason for doing this now is because of the profile of the people who would be affected not being the people one would have expected when the legislation was going through. The Explanatory Memorandum suggests that only 2% to 3% of the people affected would be living in Great Britain, versus 18% to 23% overseas, but the absolute numbers are broadly comparable. We are talking 9,000 to 12,000 in Great Britain and 6,000 to 10,000 overseas. The memorandum says:

“Current projections by the Department indicate that in the medium and long term, abolition of the de minimis condition would have disproportionately benefitted people living outside the UK”.

What is expected to be the short-term impact?

As the noble Lord, Lord German, said, the changes made by the last Labour Government in the Pensions Act 2007 are the context for this. It meant that people who reached state pension age on or after 6 April 2010 needed only 30 qualifying years to qualify for a full basic state pension—and, of course, the HRP, as the noble Lord, Lord German, said. With fewer than 30 years, they qualify for a BSP of one-30th of the full rate for each complete qualifying year that they have built up. That means that somebody reaching state pension age from 6 April 2010 who would not be entitled to any BSP would only be somebody who had built up not even one qualifying year. So it is quite a significant difference. The Labour Government estimated that to mean that, by 2025, over 90% of people reaching state pension age would be entitled to a full BSP. It is quite a big difference from that to someone with, say, nine qualifying years, who as I understand it would not receive anything at all. Labour tried in various ways during the passage of the Bill to soften the transitioning, which would have dealt with some of the issues, but the Government rejected it. Have the Government had any further thoughts on that?

On another point, that is only one of many reasons why someone might not find themselves entitled to a full new state pension, which has become a bit of an issue of late. I understand the desire for simplicity, but in trying to advocate for the single-tier pension, there is a danger that the Government have led many people to believe that they will all qualify for the new state pension, when, in fact, we now know—from freedom of information papers released after Christmas—that 55% of people will not be on the new flat-rate state pension. Obviously, this is partly down to the way the Government have presented this. In an unusual bout of politicians declaring their responsibility, I gather that the Pensions Minister Steve Webb told the Daily Telegraph:

“I think I may have been guilty of oversimplifying the new flat rate state pension”.

Could the Minister tell the Committee, given that that misapprehension is out there, for whatever reason, what steps the Government are taking to correct it? What kind of information campaign is going on to make sure that people who are approaching retirement within the next 10 years will have a better understanding of what they can reasonably expect to get?

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these regulations. I will try to cover the points raised; where I fail to do so, I certainly undertake to write to noble Lords. I turn first to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord German, on an issue that is, perhaps, somewhat tangential to the regulations themselves, but certainly an issue that I know the noble Lord feels strongly about, and is impacted by these regulations. Let me return to the basic point here, and answer some of the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, as well.

The 10-year period signifies a close connection with the United Kingdom. I suppose there is nothing magic in a period: that is the period chosen, and, of course, we have to do this within the broad envelope of public spending. That is the basic rationale here. The question raised by the noble Lord, Lord German, concerned what happened to pensioners, or prospective pensioners in some cases, who were in countries such as South Africa, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, which did not have a bilateral arrangement with the United Kingdom and were clearly not in the EEA. It is fair to say that they are not able to build up the qualifying period in the same way as people within the United Kingdom and people in the EEA or countries with bilateral agreements with the United Kingdom, such as the USA and Israel, which I mentioned. That has been the position through successive Governments. This is nothing new in these regulations and nothing new with this Government: this has been built up over a period of time. This is not seen as a key priority at the moment, in relation to pensions reform. I do not know the number of people who will be affected or the breakdown of how many are in each country. I will write to both noble Lords with whatever statistics we have on this to elucidate that point. The fundamental point is, however, that 10 years has been picked as signifying a close connection with the UK. The EEA is in a particular position with regard to the co-ordination of pensions policy, so that is why that is affected.

In relation to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord German, on guidance and communications, I will, again, seek to provide more information in writing. We have a communications campaign going on that will set out the broad principles: they are operational and will influence how the scheme operates. This was launched in November and aimed at broadening awareness and understanding of how the state pension is changing. This has been trialled: there are regional trials in the north-west and the north-east as a control to see how that is being perceived. There is also an online campaign with an offshoot of YouTube—PensionTube—for people to find out more information. We are seeking to communicate the changes being made to the system as things move forward.

Turning to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, I can confirm that those unlawfully at large are not, so far as I am aware, getting food and lodging at the expense of the public purse. A different point applies there. That is the point in prison. If they escaped from prison, it would be a bit perverse to reward them for escaping from prison or a psychiatric unit by saying that they could have their pension. Presumably if we were in that position, we would know where they were and would recapture them, but that is the point.

The noble Baroness made a particular point about the lump sum or annuity where somebody has deferred and then seeks to crystallise the amount in a lump sum or annuity. The reason for dispensing with the lump sum payment arrangements was that the new deferral arrangements would help to flatten the expenditure profile and offset some of the costs of the early years over a period which, if there was an ability to take a lump sum, would expose us on the public spending front, as I understand it. The new state pension scheme—this may be hard to believe—is simpler, and the deferral arrangements reflect the change. Offering a choice of deferral payments has made the current system rather complex, and people are unsure what is best for them. That is basically the reason. The lump sum is seen as a somewhat inflexible savings vehicle. That is the reason that we have gone for the annuity option.

I will have to write to the noble Baroness on this point. I think I have seen this somewhere, but I had better be careful what I say. I think it is possible after 2016 to buy additional qualifying periods pre-2016. I am not sure whether that affects qualification or only the amount of the pension that could be drawn down. I think that is probably a point on which we need to get back to the noble Baroness. I will write on that point. I think at the very least I have seen something about it affecting the amount of the pension that you can draw down. You can certainly contribute post-2016. Whether you can use that for a qualifying year, I am not sure, but I will write to the noble Baroness on that point. There is a communications campaign.

The noble Baroness raised a number of points. The mini-jobs point was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, in the Chamber. I am afraid I do not have the current state of play on that because it is somewhat wide of these regulations, but I will ensure that the noble Baroness gets a response on that point.

With regard to the fact that not everybody will be getting the full amount, the reason is that if those who have contracted out—and many have currently contracted out, although that ends in 2016—were to get the full amount, it would be double-counting. You would have the benefit of contracting out in the other pension and then you would get the full amount with the state pension. That would be unfair, so that is why. Nobody is worse off. There are provisions now to prevent that opting out counting. That is purely what this is. That number will decline over time because opting out is ending, but the figures that the noble Baroness cited are correct. Not all those getting the new pension will get the full amount because they are getting the benefit of the opt-out.

[Baroness Sherlock]

Did the Minister say that nobody would be worse off? Did he mean that?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I hope I did not, because I am not sure that is the case. If I did, I certainly correct that point. I am not sure that nobody will be worse off. I could not say that.

When that story broke, as it were, this was not new news; it was old news and the BBC and perhaps others—I should not single the BBC out—were being lazy in reporting. We are clearly correcting that via the media. I think it has been corrected. The reason for this is to ensure that there is no double-counting. As I cannot be certain, I would not go so far as to say that nobody is worse off, but I think it would be perceived as fair by most fair-minded people that if you have opted out of the state system and the state has, as it were, contributed to a different pension, you should not be able to count that again for the benefit of the state pension. I think it is fair to say that most people are better off, but I would not like to put a particular figure on the amount.

If I have missed anything, I will certainly pick it up in writing to noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. I thank them once again for their helpful contributions and commend these regulations to the Grand Committee.