House of Lords: Reform

Baroness Quin Excerpts

Tuesday 21st June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Quin]

My Lords, I confess that originally I was tempted not to take part in this debate because, even during my relatively short time in your Lordships’ House, this subject has been debated on many occasions. However, as I hold what is clearly a minority view, I am concerned that if I stay silent the minority view is even less likely to be heard. In fact, although it is clear that the majority view in the debate today has been strongly in favour of an appointed House and against an elected one, there have been some powerful speeches the other way. I was particularly taken with the speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, who made many of the points that I, too, feel strongly about.

At the last election, all three parties supported reform, so the two parties of the coalition can claim a mandate for their proposals. Furthermore, we have to remember that, in the last Parliament, the House of Commons voted in favour of an elected second Chamber. If we are serious about the primacy of the other place, we need fully to recognise that context and that situation. We also have to consider the problem that at the moment we do not have any formal link with the electorate, yet, in a democratic system, power emanates from the people. I certainly concede that, if we were a purely advisory body, that lack of accountability would be much less of a problem. However, we hold Ministers to account, we amend legislation and, indeed, on occasion we have stopped legislation in its tracks, as happened with the anti-terrorism provisions in the last Parliament.

As well as establishing a link with the electorate, elections would guarantee representation across the UK. Studies by organisations such as the New Local Government Network and others show that there are wide regional disparities in your Lordships’ House, which, despite some welcome recent appointments, still persist. The north of England and the Midlands in particular lose out. At the moment regional representation, such as it is, is haphazard or accidental. I do not feel that that is satisfactory.

Like all Members, I have great respect for the work that the House does. Indeed, I have felt that strongly ever since I was elected as a Member of the European Parliament in 1979. I was deeply impressed by the detailed scrutiny work of the European Union that was carried out in your Lordships’ House and which continues effectively up to the present day. Indeed, that committee work has been a feature of the House of Lords ever since the time of Walter Bagehot, who said in 1867:

“The committees of the Lords (as is well known) do a great deal of work and do it very well”.

Interestingly, Bagehot said of the House of Commons:

“The whole scene is so encumbered with changing business, that it is hard to keep your head in it”.

As a former Member of the other place, I understand all the pressures from constituents and the amount of legislation to be dealt with. For that reason, the scrutiny role and the detailed committee work of your Lordships’ House is extremely valuable. However, I happen to believe, despite what many speakers have said today, that that role can be continued combined with elections.

Most elected second Chambers around the world have as their core role the scrutiny of legislation, yet virtually all those second Chambers have no power to dismiss Governments and I think that none has the power unilaterally to give themselves more powers even if they would like them. We have to bear that in mind. The noble Lord, Lord Marks, reminded us that certain legislation would remain on the statute book whatever changes are introduced to the composition of your Lordships’ House, although I also take the point made by my noble friend Lord Wills that codification is an important aspect of the debate and should not be overlooked. I share the general view that the Government’s proposals so far are inadequate in that respect.

When talking about their fears of gridlock in the future, many noble Lords have given the example of the United States, but I do not find that convincing. The United States has a presidential system and the two Chambers were set up with equal powers under the American constitution. It is not the case that, over time, one House has sought and won greater power vis-à-vis the other. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, who is in his place, said a couple of weeks ago that the original idea was not for coequal powers, but, by the time that the American constitution came to be drafted, the Chambers were seen very much as being coequal and providing a check and balance on each other. As things have turned out, the Senate has perhaps become marginally the more powerful Chamber, simply because it has longer terms of office and has acquired a status whereby it is often seen as a launching pad for presidential aspirations in a way that the House of Representatives is not.

Expertise has been mentioned by many people. Of course, like others, I value the contribution of experts, but, given the variety of legislation, noble Lords often deal with business in which they are not expert, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, observed—we all of us find ourselves in that situation. Through co-options on to specialist committees, or by going for the 80 per cent option, it will be possible to harness expertise so that it is not lost to an elected House.

I would make a similar comment about the contribution of the Bishops. In a modern democracy, I do not support a religious group having representation as of right, even if it is the established church. In any case, the church’s authority has derived in the past not so much from having a place in your Lordships’ House as from the authority that it has brought to bear in reports such as Faith in the City, where it drew on its day-to-day experience with communities out there in the country.

I generally support my own party’s position on this subject, although I am not attracted by the proposal for a referendum. I would prefer to give people the permanent power of choosing Members of this place rather than the temporary power of voting in a referendum. I have spoken against referendums so often in debates here that I might be in danger of standing on my head if I went down the route of supporting such a proposal, although I note that it received some support from the other side of the House.

There are obviously problems, but they are not insurmountable. Experience from abroad shows that second Chambers generally live within their powers. They cannot increase them unilaterally and they do not cause gridlock on the whole. They tend to add value to the democratic systems in which they operate. Surely our Parliament, with its long and proud democratic tradition, is capable of creating a democratic, competent and respected second Chamber for the future.