Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th October 2020 Grand Committee

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: many people use their pharmacies to ask about basic health issues, to get a flu jab or the regular off-the-shelf medicines. As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, remarked, an effective local pharmacy takes huge pressure off GP practices. If the Minister is unable to accept Amendment 29, can she confirm what the Government would propose by way of legislation? Can she guarantee a proper consultation? I am sure that noble Lords would instinctively prefer primary to secondary legislation and be happy to accept this amendment.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, as we have heard, hub and spoke is an issue on which there was debate in the Commons and we return to it now.

I first want to explain the intention of the inclusion of Clause 2(1)(c) on wholesale dealing and why it is vital that it remains. Wholesale dealers, involved in moving products from manufacturers to the person supplying the product to the patient, are an essential part of the supply chain, ensuring patient access to medicines. More than one wholesale dealer may be involved in the supply chain for a particular medicine, but anyone who intends to sell or supply medicines to someone other than the patient using the medicine must obtain a wholesale dealer’s licence.

Clause 2(1)(c) allows amendments to be made to the law governing the distribution of medicinal products by way of wholesale dealing. This could include matters around providing and maintaining the equipment and facilities needed for the handling, storage and distribution of the medicinal products under a wholesale dealer’s licence. This is vital, particularly in light of emerging safety concerns, or innovative new techniques and technologies. Omission of this power would limit our ability to maintain the integrity of the supply chain. For example, some vaccines require storage and transport at ultra-low temperatures to ensure that they remain effective. Courier companies delivering medicines are exempt from certain licensing requirements.

If we could no longer make changes under Clause 2(1)(c), we could not amend the definition of wholesale dealing to support the transport of temperature -sensitive pharmaceuticals in different ways, if needed. Recent exemptions to wholesale dealer licensing during Covid have allowed for the swift and safe transfer of flu vaccines and other medicines for treatment of pandemic disease between NHS organisations. Through this flexibility, we have been able to quickly respond to patient need. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, has indicated that, in addition to the question around the need for this power in particular, there is a question around its intention for use in delivery of the hub and spoke model. That is part of the intention behind Amendment 23.

As we have heard, enabling hub and spoke dispensing arrangements where both the hub and spoke pharmacies are not part of the same pharmacy chain is one such example of how powers in Clause 2 could be used, including under Clause 2(1)(c), as we may need to amend the definition of wholesale dealing to support hub and spoke dispensing models. Under current regulatory provisions, only a subset of pharmacy businesses are realising the benefits of hub and spoke. For hub and spoke dispensing, our intention is to give all community pharmacies the same flexibility to explore efficiencies of scale and use of automation that some larger pharmacies already enjoy. Removing this barrier would level the playing field for all community pharmacies and enable them to make use of this type of dispensing model.

However, we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in speaking to his amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, and all other noble Lords in this discussion the concern around how these matters were consulted on in 2016 and what the Government’s intention is for consultation on changes to this model. I reassure noble Lords that there is a difference between then and now. The proposed use of hub and spoke and changes to support it have the support of the Pharmaceutical Services Negotiating Committee, and the five-year deal under the community pharmacy contractual framework for 2019-20 to 2023-24 included a commitment to pursue legislative change so that all pharmacies may benefit from these efficiencies.

We have of course also in recent months had the changes Covid has brought. The pharmacy landscape has changed and adapted in this environment. I pay tribute to the work of community pharmacists and their teams in responding to the challenges of the pandemic. They have been on the front line supporting patients throughout this very challenging time.

The Government agree with the spirit of all noble Lords’ comments, particularly in relation to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, on the need for proper consultation before any changes are brought in, and on the importance of the sector’s engagement to deliver hub and spoke. That is exactly what we intend to achieve. I assure noble Lords that it is absolutely the case that hub and spoke would be taken forward only on the basis of a fresh consultation, based on the current state of play in community pharmacy. Our approach to hub and spoke dispensing models is to consult and make use of productive stakeholder engagement to develop the policy, then to set out in detailed secondary legislation the new regulatory provisions. We are keen to ensure that strong engagement with stakeholders is fed into the development of this policy.

We recognise that there are some important considerations to make use of this type of dispensing model safely and to enable efficiencies. We want to consult specifically on the right approach to hub and spoke, including any patient data safeguards that may be needed, to ensure that our proposals are safe and in the public interest before legislating. To meet the requirement of the government amendment tabled later in the Bill, this would of course be a public consultation.

On the specific points in the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, it is critical that we consider how patient data will be safeguarded, as he said at Second Reading. I of course recognise that patients’ healthcare information is confidential and must be handled in accordance with data protection regulation. Handling patient information appropriately and confidentially is of course a routine part of a pharmacy’s business. As part of their professional standards, pharmacists must respect and maintain a person’s confidentiality and privacy, and owners of pharmacy businesses must make sure that they comply with all legal requirements, including data protection legislation.

The noble Lord is right that in considering changes to pharmacies’ operating models we must consider the security of patients’ data and the integrity of the supply chain carefully, drawing on the input from stakeholders. I am happy to put on record that that will be part of the forthcoming consultation on hub and spoke.

My reservation with the noble Lord’s amendment is that placing a timeframe in the Bill, as he proposes, will force the Government to consult in haste. Rather than an arbitrary deadline, which could lead to ill-considered policy development, we want to be able to consult with stakeholders fully and thoroughly on proposals. It is important that we take the time needed to get this right—noble Lords have made that very clear in the debate—first by engaging with stakeholders, as well as with formal consultation. We want to take forward this work as soon as possible, subject to the Bill’s passage.

Noble Lords raised a couple of other points relating to community pharmacy. I agree with all noble Lords on the integral role of community pharmacy in the delivery of health services. Hub and spoke is one way the Government envisage the potential for pharmacists’ skills to be better deployed in patient-facing care.

On financial support to the sector, we are consulting the PSNC on this and other matters as part of the year 3 community pharmacy contractual framework discussions. We also intend to continue discussions with the PSNC on the additional costs that Covid has placed on community pharmacies.

The Government absolutely value and support the work of community pharmacies. I hope noble Lords have heard enough by way of reassurance and that the noble Lord and the noble Baroness feel able not to press their amendments.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) (Lab)]

There are no requests to speak after the Minister, so I now call the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler. Oh, apologies, I call the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will pick up on the noble Lord’s point about timing. The Government acknowledge that this has been committed to for a long time. However, I also pick up on the point that when this process started in 2016 it might not have been as consultative as it could have been. Therefore, there is a balance to be struck between making progress and making sure that progress happens through engagement with stakeholders and proper consultation.

On the immediate timeframe in the noble Lord’s amendment, while I would be incredibly supportive of swift progress, we need to recognise, as some noble Lords have, the pressures that Covid has placed on the sector and other parts of the healthcare system. While we are committed to making progress on this, such a firm deadline could mean that the process again did not run as well as it might, given that the Covid pressures still exist and we are not sure when that situation will change exactly. We are enthusiastic about making progress, but we need to ensure it is done properly. A deadline placed in the way it would be by the amendment might not be supportive of that.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, would also like to come in at this point.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

I just wanted to come back to the consultation. I am grateful to the Minister for her full and encouraging response, but can she say a little more about how the public and patient groups are to be involved in this consultation? In terms of the work, given what the Minister in the Commons said about the small pharmacies, will part of the consultation look at the actual economics of how those small businesses can compete and take advantage of hub and spoke?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the commitment on the consultation is that it would be a public one, in line with the government amendment on what type of consultation we need to undertake for regulations made under the Bill. That would therefore include patient groups. On the content of the consultation, I understand that when it first took place it was very open, to hear from the sector how it would want to make use of the powers. My understanding is that we have heard the need to have a more structured conversation on the framework for how these powers could deliver the benefits which people think they could. Maybe I could undertake to write to the noble Lord with some more detail on that.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

Some of the points I was going to come back on have been raised pertinently by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and my noble friend Lord Hunt. I too thank the Minister for her full and comprehensive response, and I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. Between us, we have covered a pretty comprehensive range of the issues and concerns around this. However, the Minister has not really made the case that warrants the use of the delegated powers contained in the Bill, nor met the criteria of the DPRR Committee—in particular, that the use of secondary legislation needs to be justified. The words of the DPRR were that the department should “acknowledge the breadth” and depth of the powers proposed and justify them. I do not think that has yet been done.

My noble friend Lord Hunt raised the complex issues on funding, as have other noble Lords. There is much to be achieved in putting funding on a stable footing for community pharmacists. The Minister was unable to answer the specific questions on the £370 million that my noble friend raised, but there needs to be recognition of extra costs. That point has been made forcefully in the House, in questions to the Minister, and I hope that the Government will make that response.

Overall, the Minister has not fully answered the key question of how these proposals fit into the longer-term NHS plan for transforming pharmacy as an integral part of primary care. There are a number of issues around that, which is why we particularly wanted to see a comprehensive plan going forward. Where is the overall strategy and plan for this?

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, raised a number of issues about how we want to take the development of pharmacists forward. The prescribing powers set out in the Bill are obviously the road to that, but I still do not have a comprehensive picture of how all this fits together. It comes back to the fairness of hub and spoke. Yes, of course the legislation is permissive, and community pharmacies will not have to join hub and spoke arrangements if they do not want to, but the complexity of some of the models proposed and the power of the large-scale providers really make the level playing-field so important—and important to the survival of community pharmacists—that we need to be much clearer about how it is going to work out.

I certainly welcome the commitment on consultation. That is so vital and, as everybody has said, the 2016 consultation was never really completed. As the Minister explained, there was neither the time nor the follow-through for it. I hope that this one will be comprehensive. I would have liked to have heard some kind of timescale but that is obviously yet to come. Much remains unanswered, which we may need to come back to on Report. We will look carefully at Hansard, but meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Let me begin by thanking noble Lords for their time last week when they spoke to me and my noble friend about the issues raised in relation to Amendment 24. We have listened carefully to the concerns raised both in meetings and at Second Reading, and again today.

First and foremost, I want to reiterate the Government’s position that, if true, the practice of systematic, state-sponsored organ harvesting would constitute a serious violation of human rights. I know that my noble friend Lord Ahmad, Minister for South Asia and the Commonwealth, takes seriously the concerns expressed by noble Lords and he continues to monitor the issue very closely. As noble Lords may know, my noble friend Lord Ahmad wrote to the WHO encouraging it to give careful consideration to the findings of the 1 March report by the International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse in China. We hope to have a response to this shortly. As my noble friend indicated, he is happy to meet noble Lords again to discuss this further.

Noble Lords have spoken powerfully on a number of issues that go beyond the scope of this Bill, and I hope they will forgive me if I focus on the specifics of Amendment 24. As I said when we met last week, I think that we are largely agreed on the outcome that we wish to achieve, and this is about getting the mechanism right. None of us wants our UK medicines industry to be compromised by unethically sourced human tissues.

However, it is important to be clear that the vast majority of tissue-based medicinal products in the UK do not use material sourced from a donor at all; they use patients’ own tissues. As we have outlined previously, there is only one licensed medicine on the UK market that uses donor tissue. This material is procured within the EU. The product uses human adult stem cells extracted from fat tissues, and those cell donations are taken in Spain during the process of liposuction. The starting material is procured from authorised EU centres in accordance with the EU tissues and cells directive. Noble Lords will also know that there are schemes where UK sites may be licensed to manufacture tissue-based or cell-based products without a marketing authorisation, but even among those only one site uses donor tissue. That tissue is sourced within the UK.

That is not to say that I do not have sympathy with the amendment. Noble Lords have made it clear that they want to ensure that the Bill allows for changes to be made as necessary to the regulation of human medicines which could tighten requirements around the use of tissues in the development of medicines. I reassure noble Lords that the Bill already provides powers to allow us to make regulatory changes to tighten requirements, such as strengthening requirements on evidence of consent that would be provided as part of the marketing authorisation process. Nevertheless, I also understand noble Lords’ desire to make this explicit and to send a message.

However, there are some important drafting deficiencies in the amendment as it stands. It refers specifically to

“the origin and treatment of human tissue used in the process of developing and manufacturing medicines”.

My concern is that “developing … medicines” causes too much ambiguity. There is no single, established point in the pre-clinical stages of research where the development of a new medicinal product begins. How far back into research studies does the development of medicines start? Does it, for instance, capture academic research on a substance which then finds the product to be of medicinal value? Equally, medicinal products are often developed with international partners, and the early medicines development is inevitably outside of UK jurisdiction. How would new consent requirements be applied in that context?

These are important drafting questions. It is important to ensure that any enabling power is drafted with the appropriate level of precision. As noble Lords know, the drafting has a material impact on the potential subject matter of any regulations made under the power. We would not want wording in the Bill to create a risk of unintended consequences when making regulations. For instance, if regulations were made to apply significant, broad consent requirements when testing medicines, this might capture medicines tested on cell lines which date back more than 50 years, and for which seeking and evidencing consent would be impossible. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, referred to, we would want to think carefully about the scope of any regulation and the approach that we should take.

We have heard many noble Lords talk throughout debate on the Bill about the importance of supporting future availability of innovative new medicines in the UK. They are right. The same is true for the ongoing supply of established medicines to the UK market. While I am, as I have said, sympathetic to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I am concerned that the current drafting would create a risk of unintended consequences when making regulations.

There is also an important point on consistency. Within the Bill, “law relating to human medicines” is defined in Clause 7 to include comprehensive legislation such as the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 and the Medicines for Human Use (Clinical Trials) Regulations 2004. With that in mind, when it comes to human medicines, the powers in this Bill are concerned with clinical trials. To add the concept of development would create confusion and inconsistency with drafting elsewhere in the Bill, in particular Clause 1(2)(c).

I thank all noble Lords for the considerable thought and engagement which they have given to this issue. I would really welcome further discussion involving officials, myself and my noble friend the Minister in coming weeks to discuss the issues that noble Lords have raised and the drafting issues that I have mentioned today. The noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, asked a specific question about the Council of Europe and ratification of a treaty there. I will ask the FCDO to write to him on that.

I therefore hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, feels able to withdraw his amendment today. I look forward to further discussions on this matter between Committee and Report.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover (LD) [V]]

Can the Minister tell me whether she has read the China Tribunal report in preparation for this amendment, as I asked when I was speaking to it? If she has not, will she agree to do so before Report, especially to help inform her since she may come forward with her own amendment, as I hope she is indicating?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My apologies to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. I have read the findings of the report and will agree to read the full report ahead of any further meetings that we have.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this has been a very powerful debate. Each contribution has been measured and the product of expertise, human value and internationalism. I am grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay, Lady Jolly and Lady Northover, the noble Lords, Lord Ribeiro, Lord Alton, Lord Patel and Lord Sheikh, and my noble friend Lord Collins. I am also grateful to the Minister, who I thought provided a very constructive response at the end.

When the noble Lord, Lord Alton, talked about Alder Hey, he probably did not realise that that is really where my interest in this subject stemmed from. I was the Minister responsible for the north-west at the time that scandal emerged. I appointed the chair of the inquiry and met the parents involved on a number of occasions. I listened to the harrowing tales from parents; some of them took part in three funerals for parts of their child’s body. What happened was shocking, and I learned from that how crucial it is that, when we deal with human tissues and organs, the integrity of the process is vital.

I was also fortunate to be able to take the Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill through your Lordships’ House a couple of years ago; it is now law. I hope that it changes the basis of organ consent and will lead to more organ donations in this country—the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, referred to this eloquently. Again, when you move to presumed consent, you have to have absolute trust in the integrity of all the people involved. Just as it is important in this country, so it is globally, which is why we must take action in relation to the activities of China—and other countries, as we heard during this debate.

I listened carefully to what the Minister had to say. She made the point that the use of imported human tissues is very limited. None the less, we have identified a gap in the legislation. She made two points: first, she said that the Bill already provides for the kind of authority we wish to give to Ministers; then she went into detail on the drafting challenges that she thought our amendment faced. However, she used her words in a constructive way and I am very grateful to her. I reassure her that I and my colleagues will be very willing to work with her officials to see whether we can come up with an amendment that meet our needs but does not lead to the kind of perverse incentives that she referred to.

This has been a wonderful debate. We have had a constructive response from the Government. I am convinced that we are going to make progress and, at the end of the day, in this legislation we will make a mark—important in this country but also internationally —saying that we will do everything we can to stop this appalling process. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

This is a slightly strange time to be making this speech, because it seems likely that we will not hear the Minister’s speech until we reconvene in a week’s time. If that is the case, I would like to register that I will probably want to ask a question after the Minister speaks, if that is where we finally end up.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and my noble friend Lord Hunt for the way in which they spoke at the beginning of this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, went into a level of detail about the effects of the government amendments that was absolutely right and accurate. It also lies at the heart of my remarks. I need to make it clear from the outset that we on these Benches regard the government amendments to this part of the Bill as dangerous, sloppy and possibly sinister. The Minister must be aware, because we have discussed it with the Bill manager, that we regard the use of “a person” in Amendment 48 as something that should set alarm bells ringing right across the House.

I am getting a feeling of déjà vu. The Bill mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, started its life as the international healthcare arrangements Bill and ended it as the European Union and Swiss healthcare arrangements Bill, because it cast its net so wide. One of the giveaways is what the Government say in their description of their amendments:

“This new Clause makes clear that information held by the Secretary of State or the Department of Health in Northern Ireland in connection with human medicines can be disclosed, subject to certain restrictions, to persons outside the United Kingdom in order to give effect to a relevant international agreement or arrangement.”


The same explanatory statement follows the other government amendments in this group and tells us what the purpose of these amendments is. This underlines why we on these Benches will ask the Delegated Powers Committee to have another look at the Bill. These amendments fundamentally change the purpose of the Bill. It is not the same Bill that it looked at when it did its first report in July.

One of the reasons why this discussion—I am afraid I do not use the word “debate” about these proceedings—is so important is the read-across to the Trade Bill, to which I moved an amendment in Grand Committee a few weeks ago. It is about scrutiny and accountability. Amendment 45 is about fees: accountability and transparency and setting the level of fees. I would like the Minister to address that issue, which is fairly straightforward.

Amendment 118 in my name concerns international agreements. In terms of its policy content, it is probably the opposite of government Amendment 48. There is a policy clash here and I need to be clear that I am very unhappy about the fact that we have to agree to amendments that are unacceptable to us because of the time problems that the Government face on the Bill. We will be looking very carefully indeed at these sections of the Bill and will be seeking to amend them at the next stage.

The read-across we need to look at is to do with the trade negotiations with the United States, the EU and elsewhere, where we have to have systems of transparency and scrutiny about trade deals. The House of Lords passed an amendment to a previous Trade Bill on parliamentary scrutiny, but the Government have not made good their promises to give Parliament a say in new trade deals. I am concerned about the threat to our NHS and public health from these amendments, and about the misuse of information. We are concerned that, at present, Parliament does not have adequate powers to guide and scrutinise either the trade negotiations or the issues that will arise out of the Bill. We will need to look at this very carefully when it moves to the next stage.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I am responding as a Whip, rather than as a Minister. I understand that this is not the ideal moment to break, but I believe that noble Lords would wish to hear a full response to the issues raised. I therefore beg to move that the debate on this amendment be adjourned.

Motion agreed.