Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 4th November 2020 Grand Committee

Debate on Amendment 27 resumed.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their patience in waiting a full week to hear the response to what was a very useful and detailed debate. By way of compensation, I hope my response today reassures them that my time has been put to good effect: I am sure they will let me know if that is not the case.

Amendment 27 was tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. I reassure both noble Lords that the Government and the MHRA remain committed to ongoing international collaboration for the benefit of patients and the life sciences sector in the UK. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, set out some of the work the MHRA is doing to deliver on this commitment after the end of the transition period in his opening remarks on this group. I am pleased that noble Lords had the opportunity to hear from and question the MHRA directly on this and other issues this week. The Government heard the request from noble Lords to ensure that this is part of an ongoing dialogue with the regulator and parliamentarians.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I am reluctant to revisit the debate on alignment with the EU, which we have already had in this Committee, as well as in many previous debates. However, I reassure him that the UK is seeking mutual recognition with the EU on a number of areas, including batch testing, good manufacturing practice and continuing co-operation on pharmacovigilance. Certain aspects of medicine regulations are also harmonised at an international level and we are committed to those international standards in all areas. Indeed, to further support the aim of continued international collaboration, we have tabled Amendment 48, which I will come to shortly.

Turning to Amendment 118, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, I reassure her that this amendment is unnecessary. The MHRA and the VMD are both recognised globally as leading regulators and will retain their regulatory sovereignty regardless of any trade deals agreed. This will include the MHRA’s duty to consider the safety and efficacy of human medicines placed on the UK market. We will ensure that our new FTAs provide flexibility for the Government to protect legitimate domestic priorities; we have made this clear in our published approach to trade negotiations with specific trading partners.

On the price the NHS pays for medicines, the Government have made clear that this is not on the table for negotiations. The prices of branded medicines will continue to be controlled through the 2019 voluntary scheme for branded medicines pricing and access—VPAS. To be absolutely clear, the powers in the Bill do not enable regulations to be made that relate to the pricing of medicines or medical devices. In relation to data, the UK has a strong system to protect health and care data, as set out in the Data Protection Act 2018 and covered by the common law duty of confidentiality. Our objectives for trade negotiations are explicit that we will maintain the UK’s high standards of data protection. Again, to be absolutely clear, it would not be within the scope of the powers in the Bill under Clauses 1, 8 and 12 to create exceptions to or modify the provisions of our data protection legislation.

I heard in last week’s debate that questions of safeguards and data protection were at the heart of noble Lords’ concerns about the government amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Bethell, to which I will now turn. These amendments would allow us to share information regarding these areas with international regulators or networks where this is required to give effect to international agreements or arrangements. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and others about the motivation behind these amendments, which have been identified as necessary as part of the work to support the future relationship with the European Union, and to protect and preserve existing work that the MHRA does. On his question about source codes and algorithms in medical devices, I make two points. The UK-Japan trade deal, as with the EU-Japan trade deal that came before it, provides for safeguards against IP infringement on the question of source code and algorithms. However, to protect patient safety, and for effective regulation, there remains provision for a regulator or conformity assessment body to request source code and algorithms as part of their regulatory responsibilities.

The MHRA and the VMD presently share and receive intelligence from their counterparts through our membership of the European Union, which will come to an end. The MHRA and the VMD will be the UK’s independent, standalone regulators and require appropriate legal powers for their own reciprocal information-sharing arrangements with other nations and forums. Without this, the UK may not be able to comply with its information-sharing obligations under international agreements; nor would it be able to participate in international arrangements facilitating the mutual exchange of intelligence regarding medicines and medical devices. These exchanges of information are of vital interest to UK patient safety. For example, intelligence sourced from international regulators through the EU has ensured access to life-saving medical devices for UK patients during Covid and has enabled the MHRA to trace suppliers of non-compliant testing kits. This is vital and will continue to be so going forward.

Future reciprocal information-sharing agreements with international regulators will help the MHRA and VMD to take swift regulatory action on medicines and medical devices that pose a risk, removing them from the marketplace if necessary. I reassure noble Lords that this data is limited to the data that the MHRA holds. The MHRA will always anonymise patient data before it is shared internationally, under the powers in the Bill. For the purpose of pharmacovigilance, for example, the MHRA might need to share information received through adverse incident reports. However, the information would always be anonymised and is usually kept at a high level—for example, description of the safety signal, or a trend report to identify whether another country has also identified an issue with a particular product or manufacturer.

I appreciate that there has been some concern over the use of the word “person” in the drafting of the amendment. We used that word, rather than specifying particular organisations, because we anticipate that international agreements will require the UK to share information not only with overseas regulators but with other bodies, such as overseas Governments, international organisations such as the World Health Organization, and international networks such as the International Medical Device Regulators Forum.

The wording is necessary because it provides the breadth, for example, to share data with international networks that might not be formalised. If we were to list all the organisations, networks and relationships that might be involved, it would simply not be possible to keep that list live on the face of legislation. Debate has been categorical that the MHRA needs to be a front-footed international regulator, and to limit it to the relationships it has now, rather than being flexible with regard to new regulatory forums or relationships, would restrict that aim.

The noble Lord, Lord Patel, asked pertinent questions about the data protection provisions in the new clauses. I have to admit to noble Lords that I had the same reaction about their potentially circular nature when I first read them, and I hope that I shall be able to unpack their effect here. The GDPR sets out seven key principles for processing personal data, the first of which involves “lawfulness, fairness and transparency”. We are providing a lawful basis for processing personal data by inserting these powers. That does not remove the other protections under the Data Protection Act that apply to the sharing of information under these clauses.

Where personal data are sensitive personal data, which are now called special category data, the GDPR requires further conditions, under Article 9, to be met for the processing to be lawful. Patient health data are a type of special category data. Relevant conditions under the GDPR, of which there are 10 that could be relied on to disclose patient data under the clause, would include “explicit consent”, reasons of “substantial public interest”, health or social care reasons, or public health reasons.

The GDPR also sets out further requirements where personal data are to be shared internationally. There must be an adequacy decision in place confirming that the third country or international organisation ensures an adequate level of data protection. In the absence of an adequacy decision, appropriate safeguards must be put in place that provide enforceable data subject rights and effective legal remedies, which can take the form of a legally binding agreement or contracts between parties. In the absence of an appropriate safeguard, data could be transferred only if it were

“necessary in order to protect the vital interests of the data subject or another natural person where the data subject is … incapable of giving consent.”



Equivalent safeguards for personal data and commercially sensitive information are already in place in Clause 35 for information relating to medical devices. This is solely to facilitate the appropriate sharing of information to give effect to international agreements and arrangements. They are critical to ensuring we can regulate effectively and uphold high standards of patient safety and access.

Amendment 45, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, seeks to achieve what is already standard and long-standing practice. Existing arrangements already ensure that timeliness, openness and transparency are key to the fees regime, and they are published online and available on GOV.UK. We will ensure that the industry and any other interested stakeholders know about any future fee changes in good time. We have laid statutory instruments to implement changes at the end of the transition period, as the cost of providing some regulatory services has fallen, so the fees charged will need to be reduced.

On the basis of the reassurances I have provided on Amendments 27, 45 and 118, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Patel, feels able to withdraw Amendment 27, and that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is similarly assured and will not move her amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

To reassure the noble Baroness, I can tell her that the Opposition’s position on the government amendments is well noted. We will take away and reconsider the use of the term “person”, but there is a view that the safeguards that the noble Baroness is talking about are built in elsewhere, in how the clause would take effect. That does not mean, however, that we would not be happy to go away and look at those exact concerns, and see whether we can provide further reassurance. I am not a lawyer drafting the Bill, but that would be about looking at the terminology as well.

[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister most sincerely for her full and comprehensive—I might even say persuasive—response. She is right to say that it has been a week since we debated this group, and even I had forgotten some things. Certainly, the venom certainly seems to have gone out of our debate.

The Minister reminded us what our anxieties were. She is right to point out that I referred to the word “person” in the government amendment, and also to the GDPR. I am pleased to hear that, on reflection, she, too, had realised why we were concerned about the use of data that might not be protected through the GDPR. Some questions remain.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has raised some important points, and I am glad that we may debate this subject again. It would be useful to have a discussion beforehand, if possible, because the word “person” is too amorphous—unless the definition could be confined as to what kind of person is meant. In her response, the Minister mostly covered organisations that might be involved in the regulation of medicines or in recommendations regarding medicines and devices, but the proposal as drafted goes much wider than that and would go beyond that. I will not say any more about that now.

The meeting that the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, arranged with the MHRA was useful, and it would have been better if we had had some of the information earlier. The information that I gave with regard to my Amendment 27 I had acquired from the industry. Of course, we got the same information from the chief executive of the MHRA. It would have been better if we had had that earlier—but that is water under the bridge. We know that there will be new ways of keeping us informed, and that will be good. At this point, I thank the Minister sincerely for her response, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]]

I thank the Committee for allowing me to come in a bit late; I apologise for that.

Noble Lords have made the main points that I would have made but I simply add this. A large number of molecules are held by pharma, often with a good scientific rationale, for use in a rare condition, and we have drugs that are licensed for other uses that could be reused or repurposed. If we can speed up all these processes, and provide an incentive for medicines development, those with rare conditions—who are often absolutely desperate to try something new and very keen to be part of a monitored development—could access medicines. That would put the UK in a stronger position in the long term.

In addition, the concept of this seems so sensible that I have also put down an amendment, later in the Bill, to try to replicate it for innovative devices. We have complex situations where medical engineers may come with up a device, but we will deal with that the next time round.

In the meantime, I am most grateful to all noble Lords for the important points they have made. I await the Minister’s reply with interest.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, this debate has once again focused the Committee’s mind on the importance of innovation and the way in which it can have a transformative impact on patients’ lives.

As noble Lords have spoken of, the success of the Cancer Drugs Fund in providing interim funding means faster access to cancer drugs, saving valuable time—up to eight months in some cases—for patients accessing those drugs. Patients are now able to access cancer drugs that have received a draft NICE recommendation from the point of marketing authorisation. As noble Lords have noted, this provides the template for the innovative medicines fund.

The success over the lifetime of the Cancer Drugs Fund to date did not need legislation. It was a response to the immediate need to target access to cancer drugs. In expanding the fund to become the innovative medicines fund, I do not think legislation would advance the fund’s purpose, capacity or delivery in any material way. It will be a managed access scheme delivered by NHSEI and NICE to expand the range of medicines that could be supported by that funding.

I understand that my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy and other noble Lords would like this debate to cover an update on progress towards delivering that fund. I assure noble Lords that proposals for the innovative medicines fund are in development as we speak. We know that patients will be keen to understand the impact on them, as well as pharmaceutical companies and the NHS. It is our intention that NHSEI and NICE will lead an engagement exercise in the first quarter of 2021 to get the fund established.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, before the noble Lord winds up, I want to thank the Minister. Clearly, the fund is welcome, but it will cover only a limited number of medicines. The debate goes wider than that.

I want to ask the Minister about the financial contribution that her department receives under the current voluntary agreement with pharma for sales of branded health service medicines. Does she not agree that it is a strange position we have reached where, if the cost to the NHS of those branded medicines goes above the agreed rate, her department receives a rebate? That is excellent, but why then does the NHS continue to treat drug costs almost as a pariah and hold down its investment in new medicines? Why cannot that rebate be used as a way to incentivise a switch by the NHS to new medicine?

I have debated this with the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, and his predecessor. It is a real issue. The NHS itself believes drug costs to be a major problem, but the department has essentially solved the problem at a national level through the rebate scheme. Somehow, instead of a virtuous circle, we have got the very opposite.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord speaks with great passion. He is right that the debate goes wider than the innovative medicines fund, but it might also go somewhat wider than the scope of the Bill. I am, however, happy to write to him on the points that he raises.

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[Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con)]

I apologise for my email ineptitude.

I am grateful to my noble friend for her response. I was not planning to do so, but I have to again underline the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. We have trapped ourselves in a vicious, rather than a virtuous, circle that could well be undone. That may not be a discussion for now, but I want to underline its importance.

I want to ask my noble friend a very practical question. What did she mean by engagement? That could mean anything; it could mean pre-consultation discussion or a formal consultation. She will have garnered the strength of feeling on the topic, even in this small debate, and I am sure that will not dissipate as move forward to Report. The more detail and specificity she can give us on that process, the better.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am reminded that my noble friend Lord Lansley referred to the collective noun for former Health Ministers as a “frustration” of former Health Ministers. I can tell my noble friend that the engagement exercise will involve the pharmaceutical industry, the NHS and associated bodies and patient groups. That is the level of detail that I can give to him today. I was very pleased with being able to say “quarter 1” next year; it felt to me like a very specific timeframe for when that engagement exercise would be undertaken.

[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

Thank you, my Lords. I apologise to the Chair for jumping in. I forget that, in the new world, I do not speak unless instructed to do so.

I thank the Minister enormously for her response. She mentioned the frustrations of the former Ministers. If she thinks that former Ministers get frustrated, think about us lesser mortals who have suffered the former Ministers when they have not listened to our arguments. Maybe that should be taken into account, too.

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part. They have spoken with passion and commitment. This has been referred to by several people, but I do so again. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has been pursuing this passionately and eloquently for a very long time. He has made an important point: if the medicines are available and people are suffering, why do we keep arguing about health and drug budgets and how to deliver it? The principle should be how we can get those drugs to the patients who might be suffering. He is right. If a rebate is available, where did the money go? The rebate was a drug fund rebate to be reinvested, you would have thought, in people getting the medicines.

No doubt the Minister is aware that there seems to be complete consensus around this amendment. I hope that it does not need to go to Report but, if it does, Ministers will be aware that there will be complete consensus. I hope that the Minister makes rapid progress with sorting this out. In the meantime, I thank all noble Lords and the Minister most sincerely for taking part. In begging leave to withdraw the amendment, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, will feel that we gave it enough airtime and passion.