Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2010

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Grand Committee

[The Duke of Montrose]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for introducing the regulations. I am sure that the poultry industry is most grateful for the derogation being extended. The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, spoke about the public’s enthusiasm for free-range and enriched colony cages in terms of production. That is where the problems of cannibalism and pecking occur most readily. Coming from Glasgow, I was most glad to hear that the University of Glasgow was able to make a positive contribution towards resolving some of the issues linked to beak-trimming and to developing infra-red treatment. Does the Minister know whether infra-red treatment is reckoned to cause any suffering, or is it objected to because it alters the physical properties of the beak?

I was grateful to my noble friend also for taking so much time to explain the rationale behind the 2015 review, because there was some doubt as to what its purpose and outcome would be.

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords, I, too, accept the regulations as an interim measure ahead of a ban on beak-trimming. There is much common ground between both sides of the Committee, so I shall not repeat any of the very good points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Quin.

I was slightly disappointed that no firm date for a ban has been given. The Explanatory Memorandum says clearly,

“with a view to banning … in 2016”.

How can we ensure that pressure is maintained on the industry to deliver to that timetable which we all want to see? I ask that question as a member of EU Sub-Committee D on agriculture, environment and fisheries, which is undertaking a review of innovation in agriculture. Many of the submissions that we have received tell of how the industry is struggling with the twin challenges of addressing climate change and the need for food security. Given that the industry is coping with finding funding for innovative research in those areas, how, without a firm cut-off date of 2016 for beak-trimming, can pressure be maintained on the industry to ensure that the necessary funding for research is delivered? I acknowledge what the Minister said about the research project in Bristol and the work of the Beak Trimming Action Group, but I should like to hear specifically how he will seek to keep pressure on the industry at a time when it is already struggling to find funding for innovative research in other areas of agriculture.

[Lord Henley]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I shall try to deal with the various questions that have been put to me.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, for accepting the difficulties involved, but she went on to say that 2016 is a long time off. I hate ever to make party-political points and, as the noble Baroness knows, I never do—well, I try not to—but I should point out that the previous Government had eight years in which to deal with this matter and they found it difficult. We are seeking another six years to take us up to 2016, and I hope that we shall be able to do what we can. We will work as quickly as possible in these matters. The noble Baroness asked particularly how we would expedite the process and start study tours to other countries—which is a very good idea. I can assure her that, early in the new year, the industry will present its plan for getting these things looked at and seeing what happens overseas.

Both the noble Baroness and my noble friend Lady Parminter said that they would like “2016” to appear in the regulations. I appreciate that it was in the previous regulations; that is why we are here today debating these regulations—it is possibly no bad thing on occasions to force Governments to come back. The commitments made by my honourable friend, which I repeated in a Written Statement, should be sufficient. However, my honourable friend made it clear that that we would do it only if it was possible. We do not want to compromise animal welfare provisions. Therefore, we will work as hard as we can and push forward as fast as we can but only, as I stress again to the noble Baroness, if these matters are possible.

The noble Baroness then asked for some idea of what we meant by “in emergencies” and when we would use something other than the infra-red treatment—that is, when we would use hot-blading. I must stress that hot-blading is intended only as a last resort and is carried out only in the interests of animal welfare. It is suitable only for the older birds and only after other provisions have been tried. Beak-trimming an adult flock is not a task that is undertaken lightly. All those poultry farmers who are involved understand the wish not to do so. I would not want to define what “emergency” means but those on the ground know what it means.

Moving on to statistics, the noble Baroness asked how many flocks had fewer than 350 laying birds. I am afraid I do not have a figure but there are a substantial number. There is, as the noble Baroness will know, no need for farmers with fewer than 50 birds to be registered. I have seven laying birds, which lay the odd egg but not that many. Those with more must be registered. I could find her an answer on the number of farmers who have between 50 and 350 birds. If that is possible, as long as it is not too expensive, I will do so.

My noble friend the Duke of Montrose asked about the evidence that infra-red technology was better than other methods. I accept that, like all methods, it is extremely likely to cause short-term pain but this has not yet been confirmed. However, on balance, the current evidence suggests that infra-red beak-trimming does not induce long-term pain. For those reasons, we are satisfied.

Lastly, the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, rightly asked about what we are doing to build alliances in Europe, in both the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament. I am glad that she stressed the importance of both. She spoke from her experience as a former Member of the European Parliament. It is important that we concentrate on both the Parliament and the Council of Ministers. We will certainly do what we can to build up the appropriate allowances and work with people. This will be generally true of everything that Defra does. Defra probably has more to do with the EU than any other department. I certainly notice that my honourable friends in Defra in another place are frequently in Brussels. The noble Baroness will know this from her own experience. We shall continue to work with others and we will certainly continue to keep other member states updated on the progress of what we are doing in our industry, just as we will continue to try to learn as much as possible from other member states. I referred in particular to Sweden and Austria; I forget which the third was.

I hope I have dealt with most of the questions that have been put to me.