Medical Innovation Bill [HL]

Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve Excerpts

Friday 12th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

My Lords, I am not certain whether the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, makes things easier by suggesting in Amendment 3 that one should move from views to support, for two reasons. One is that we have a later amendment that refers to views and the recording of them. The other is that I would have thought it would be important to record the spectrum of views concerned, not just the support—the negative views as well as the positive. So I have my doubts about Amendment 3.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

My Lords, I think that we would all take the view that the last thing we want to do in any sort of legislation is endanger patient safety. However, I suggest that the honourable Honor Smith was not acting under my noble friend Lord Saatchi’s Bill; she was acting, I take it, under the law that existed at that time. Therefore, even in the best regulated circles, with no provision for innovation, something can happen. No doubt the lady thought that she was doing the right thing when she did it, but it turned out ultimately that that was not so.

With regard to the Bill, the ultimate test of the defence is whether it is in the best interests of the patient. In taking account of views from qualified people in the area, that is an important factor. It is necessary that a doctor who is going to use this treatment should be able to satisfy the court that, in the light of the available evidence at the time when the decision was taken, this decision was in the best interests of the patient. Therefore, endangering a patient strikes me as something that is already covered quite clearly by that requirement. The mention of danger must be an important aspect of the best interests of the patient, surely.

On Amendment 2 from the noble Lord, Lord Winston, he talks about the body of medical opinion. The cases that I know of talk about “a” body; lawyers certainly do not often agree one with another and I think that sometimes doctors do not agree either. Someone therefore has to make a choice from time to time.

It is perfectly clear that we all want to prevent patients from being put in danger. I have seen and listened to the programmes by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, about the injection of stem cells into people for money in different parts of the world without the promised success ensuing from that. I am sure that there is a danger in that area. Indeed, there are dangers in many areas. However, the problem for the doctor—and I am glad in a way that this responsibility is not the kind of responsibility that one has to carry generally in other professions—is that it is the life of the patient that may well be in question. Therefore, in taking an innovative step it is essential that the views which are available in relation to the matter and which are reasonably readily available to the doctor making the decision to use the treatment are taken fully into account. That is what this Bill is trying to do.

The Bill is set out as providing for responsible innovation. One of the fundamental elements of responsibility must be the patient’s safety. While I entirely agree with the view that that is an important issue, I believe that the Bill safeguards that so far as possible. The experience to which the noble Lord, Lord Walton, referred is an example of what can happen. On the other hand, you cannot make certain; nothing is infallible. I believe that from that point of view this is as good as we can achieve.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jolly]

I have said that the Government are very supportive of a registry. Of course, patients would want to know what does and does not work, as would all doctors. I have said that I will take this issue back and discuss it with the noble Earl, Lord Howe.

[Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve]

My Lords, in so doing, it would be valuable if the Minister could go back to the central theme of today’s debate, which is patient safety, not the protection of doctors from clinical negligence claims. If we are focused on patient safety, any failure to collect valuable information, whether positive or negative, would compromise patient safety—not perhaps the safety of that individual patient at that moment but patient safety generally. The collection of data here is of fundamental importance. I cannot see the reasons why it should not be compulsory.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

Do I understand that the position that the Government are taking is a technical one on the scope of this Private Member’s Bill and that it would be improper in a Private Member’s Bill to set up a register that would go beyond the scope of this Bill as to the innovations that it covers? The idea is to set up a register that would be wider in its scope than the mere innovations that take place under this Bill, assuming that it becomes an Act. Is that the difficulty?